As the title states I am confused on this matter. The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.
Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.
I really don’t get the logic. As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.
Please don’t come at me with pro-Israeli rhetoric as this isn’t the post for that, I’m asking about why people would make such choices and I’m not up for debate on the Middle East, on this post, you can DM me for that.
Edit: Bedtime here now so will respond to incoming comments in the morning, love starting the day with an inbox full 😊.
Edit 2: This blew up, it’s a little overwhelming right now but I do intent on replying to everybody that took the time to comment. Just need to get in the right headspace.
deleted by creator
I’m sure if Trump wins it will be of great comfort to the millions more Palestinians dying in the genocide that their deaths will be useful to your smug sense of superiority.
deleted by creator
You are explicitly pro more death.
You cannot make me sit idly by and do nothing while innocents die.
deleted by creator
Having a hard line of support for genocide should not be a high bar to clear. Look at yourself in the mirtor and say, “I vote for genociders”.
See, the difference between me and you is that I care about the people who are still alive, not just the ones who are dead. I’m not okay with letting millions of innocent people die just so I don’t have to “support genocide”. I’m sure your conscience is more important than their lives though.
deleted by creator
You are explicitly pro more death.
You cannot make me sit idly by and do nothing while innocents die.
deleted by creator
See, the difference between me and you is that I care about the people who are still alive, not just the ones who are dead.
It takes a very special relationship with the truth to read what I said and think, “wow that person only cares about dead people”.
So why won’t you do anything for the people who are still alive, then?
Are you high?
You are, in fact, completely okay with letting millions of innocent people die. I’m sorry you’re in denial.
If you think your inaction will result in saving the life of a single person you are completely disconnected from reality. I’m sorry you’re in denial.
Who’s inaction? I’m taking action as are millions. Voting for their genocide is not an action that saves lives.
Funny how many people on Lemmy totally claim they’re totally taking action without ever having a single one of them actually saying what that action might be. I’m sure you’re totally doing lots and not just calling people who disagree with you names on an obscure website though.
Just because it sucks, doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The simple fact of the matter is that the statements “The Democrats are supporting a genocidal regime in Israel.” and “If Trump becomes president Netanyahu will destroy Rafah and expand the violence into the West Bank.” are not mutually exclusive statements. Taking a simple quick action to prevent one does not stop me from fighting the other. In fact, doing nothing to stop the worse case is supporting genocide. There will be more genocide if we all do nothing, and I have never seen any leftist actually suggest taking any action here on Lemmy. It’s never about doing anything. It’s always about what not to do. If that’s all you’ve got, then you’ve already failed.
The vote should be for someone who can get enough electoral college votes to win in the first place, and from there the one who is more likely to listen to public pressure, as well as the same for any congressional seats on the ballot. And probably not vote for the one who is threatening to send the military after those who disagree with them.
The vote should be for someone who can get enough electoral college votes to win in the first place
I like how Americans casually mention we’re not a democracy and everyone’s just okay with that.
Hardly okay with it. Some Americans don’t even know how things work to begin with, so ignorance is worse than knowing things are broken but what we have at the moment. Just because I acknowledge that’s the current election system doesn’t mean I don’t think we could do a lot better. That is its own topic with a lot of hills to climb, but some states have started.
And it’s a representative democracy with various flaws, one being not the proper number of constituents per representative, and far too much influence from other places that override the public’s opinions. Another separate debate.
Which as a non-American seems to be Harris, right?
For a vote, yes. I can’t even imagine what Trump would do with the situation given another chance. Some may say the same thing as the US has always done, which is one of the problems that will need to be addressed regardless of who wins, but Trump also likes dictators, so support would probably be bumped up even more for Netanyahu.
Yes, Harris is the only realistic option. Anyone voting for Trump is a Nazi in the most literal sense of the word.
If the people voting for Trump in the most literal sense of the word then they wouldn’t support Israel.
They aren’t supporting Israel because they care about the Israeli or Jewish people. They’re supporting Israel because they love blowing up brown people, with an unhealthy dollop of biblical foretelling.
Electoral College with First Past The Post electors. Hundreds of millions of american votes are dumpstered for the presidential election. So a significant portion of protest voters in deep red OR deep blue states aren’t impacting the outcome. Only swing states decide the outcome and even then it is only a few districts within those states. And so the electoral outcome for the presidency gets reduced to the most salient wedge issues in those communities.
It just so happens some things are not so localized an issue. So the idea (or one of them) is to demonstrate whether there is a meaningful voting bloc to be had here that deserves to be listened to, or can continue to be ignored.
are you seriously going to vote for genocide? wtf? i hope you are a CIA/Israeli bot and not a real person
deleted by creator
Three points:
- Biden and Harris are right now with their actions physically supporting the Genocide. Trump talks about supporting the Genocide even more. Well, guess what: Trump lies shamelessly (as the Democrat propaganda here doesn’t stop reminding us of in everything but, “strangely”, not this subject) and isn’t even competent when it comes to actual execution. So on one side we have an absolute certainty that the candidate supports the Genocide and on the other one we have a probability that its so based on the statements of a known liar. I would say the claims that Trump is worse on this are doing a lot of relying on Trump’s word (on this subject alone) in order to elevate his evilness of this above that of people who are actually, right now, shamelessly and unwaveringly supporting the Genocide with actual actions.
- If the Leadership of Democrat Party manages to whilst refusing to walk back on their active support of a Genocide, win the election with a “otherwise it’s Trump” strategy, they will move even further to the Right because that confirms to them that they can do whatever they want and still keep in power. Now, keep in mind that the Democract Party leadership already supports Fascism (ethno-Fascism, even, which is the same kind as the Nazis practiced), so far only abroad (whilst Trump does support Fascism at home) so there isn’t much more to the Right of that before Fascism at home. You see, for a Leftie voting Democrat now will probably be the least bad option in the short term, but it’s very likely to be the worst option in the long term because it consolidates and even accelerates the move of the Democrat Party to the Right.
- Some people simply put their moral principles above “yeah but” excuses and won’t vote for people supporting the mass murder of children.
In summary:
- Trump’s Genocide support is a probability based on his word, willingness and ability to fulfill it (i.e. his competence at doing it), whilst Harris’ is an actual proven fact with actions happening right now.
- A vote for the Democrats whilst their policies are so far to the Right that they’re supporting modern Nazis with the very weapons they use to mass murder civilians of the “wrong” ethnicity, if it leads to a Harris victory will consolidate this de facto Far-Right status of the party and maintain momentum in going Rightwards. Voting like that is, IMHO, a Strategically stupid choice even if the case can be made (and that’s the entirety of what the Democrat propaganda here does) that Tactically it’s the least bad choice.
- Some people can’t just swallow their moral principles, especially for making a choice which isn’t even a “choose a good thing” but actually a “choose a lesser evil”, and “Thou shall not mass murder thousands of babies” is pretty strong as moral principles go.
This isnt the first time the whole lesser of two evil bs has been done in an American election. It happens everytime. Biden said hey i may suck but atleast i wont put immigrant kids in cages! Then he kept the kids in cages and now democrats run on mass deportation policies 4 years later. Trump might say worse things but the actual effects of him being in office wont really be different then if Harris wins. If anything Harris winning will show them that being pro-genocide worked and theyll be pro even more genocide going forward.
Its just not an accurate assessment to say “Well Harris is slightly better so shouldnt the choice for her be obvious?” Because she isnt better. She just puts a better face on the exact same genocidal policies. The only difference is that Trump doesnt pretend like he feels bad about it when gazan children are slaughtered and openly admits he is a maniac. Biden publically tells Israel dont do this thing then they do it anyway and the media plays it off like Biden is just incompetent and cant stop it. But the reality is its all fake. Hes saying not to do it publically then privately green lighting whatever they want to do. They arent going against him at all hes just putting on an act for people like you. Its what the entire “International Law” that applies to the enemies of the US Empire but never applies to the US or its allies has always been. An act put on by liberals to pretend they arent evil so people who have empathy will still buy in to the system.
There is no such thing as Democracy in the US. As someone more clever than me once said:
“America only has 1 political party but in classic American opulence they have 2 of them.”
The only reason America has election is to give the illusion of consent to the governance of their population. The whole “We the People” thing is nonsense and not real. Its a Myth just like the American Dream is a Myth. Work hard and youll make it! Its all bullshit and it always has been. Vote, dont vote, it doesnt matter. The Empire will still demand blood.
This isnt the first time the whole lesser of two evil bs has been done in an American election. It happens everytime.
Every election that I can remember, and I can remember as far back as Carter vs Reagan.
and the amazing part is both the parties do it lol. Kamala is an evil communist whose gonna take your guns and kill babies if your a Republican. And Trump is a dictator lover who is gonna overthrow democracy if your a democrat. Its funny how 2 people who are ideologically alligned in almost every way possible are framed as being the opposite end of the political spectrum in US politics.
Every election is also the most important election of our lifetimes.
2 reasons jump to mind.
-
When I listen to people who personally identify with the people of Gaza, it goes way beyond logic. They have a completely emotional reaction. Their choices are almost completely driven by the question of, “Who is doing what, right now?” Questions of, “Who will do what 6 months from now?” take a distant back seat.
-
Every time the topic comes up, Democrats dogpile on them and call them morons. People will often respond with something like, “Yeah but that’s OK because they ARE morons.” I won’t argue if that’s true or not but it’s pretty obvious that line of reasoning won’t win a lot of converts.
-
Because they don’t understand that voting is just one part of the democratic process.
removed by mod
I wonder the same thing, specially since Trump is also pro-Israel and voting for either one wont save Palestine
people dont seem to see the difference between ending up with a party for which a good chunk of their supporters think that what Israel is doing is a genocide vs ending up with a party for which all of their supporters think not only that what Israel is doing is justified but should also do the same to all middle eastern countries (together with direct USA involvement).
I think there are two major subgroups within this group.
First one is immigrants whose families are from the middle east/Palestine who are rightfully very angry at all the world for doing jack shit about Israel committing genocide. What they have to realize is there are unfortunately only two options going ahead: 1- as it is now, maybe somewhat better in future, or 2- much worse. There is no third option that is going to come out of these elections but one where there is potential for change (potential coming from the supporters mentioned above) vs %100 chance of things going for the worse. Note that I am not talking at all about the candidates themselves at all, just the demographic that generally votes for them.
The second group is probably China or Russia fans who just want to see America suffer by getting Trump elected. These are very short sighted people with whom you cannot really have a coherent conversation with.
It feels like watching Trump burn the middle east to the ground instead of Harris would be cold comfort for anyone proud of not actively voting for a different genocide abetting candidate. There is no anti-genocide candidate, sadly, but one party has at least the shadow of a conscience that can be pressured later.
Could be bad actors trying to sway the vote. Could be sweet summer children who believe the means justify the end.
Democrats: “Either you vote us or you are fucked. And no you won’t get what you really want (the end of the genocide, healthcare, whatever), but you can choose to eat out shit or the republican’s. Are you happy with that? No? Fuck you and vote Harris anyway ah ah ah. You don’t have a choice, we don’t give a shit about you and your problems but you have to vote us. You have to.”
You see, people are realising that their vote is useless by design, and maybe the only way to change something is to punish the party that pretend to be the good one, the one that pretend to be at your side and pretend to work for you but it really doesn’t.
They are making you believe that democracy is just about preventing the others to get elected because they are worst. No it’s not, and you should stop being a victim and do something, anything, to force them to change. Even if you get 4 years of Trump: whoever think that it makes a difference is delusional, he’s just blatant fascist while Harris is secretly fascist. They are just two different seasoning for the same plate of shit.
