I genuinely do not know who the bad guys are. S lot of my leftist friends are against Israel, but from what I know Israel was attacked and is responding and trying to get their hostages back.
Enlighten me. Am I wrong? Why am I wrong?
And dumb it down for me, because apparently I’m an idiot.
The reality is simple. Their are “bad guys” on both sides. The “good guys” are stuck between them. The degree to which one is badder than the other really shouldn’t matter. Anyone making a living prolonging conflict should just be removed from the gene pool. Ideally by locking large numbers of them in a room with very limited supplies, just enough to fight over.
The ideal situation would be for good guys from both sides to take up on arms and overthrow their own governments to make this cycle stop, but then something will happen that they will come to hate each other again and the cycle will continue.
The fact that somebody would be asking this question after a year of genocide is phenomenal.
Reminder that at the outbreak of WWII, TONS of people in the US supported the Nazi regime right up until they started invading Western Europe AKA “the countries that matter”
Also worth noting that the US continued to do business with the nazis well into the war, and IBM famously facilitated the holocaust.
Asking lemmy.ml if Israel is bad is not a great idea if you actually want a nuanced/balanced answer. Honestly, I’d recommend just taking your research elsewhere and steering clear of social media on this one.
wasps 🤝 genocide
Yes, we oppose Israel’s genocide here.
There are no good guys in that conflict. Only innocent civilians.
The guys doing the genocide and the guys fighting the genocide are the same actually /s
So many enlightened centrists both-sidesing in this thread.
deleted by creator
There are no good guys and bad guys.
2 groups of people who are neighbors and relatives and share a common heritage keep killing each other, mostly due to shitty rulers who have no interest in their peoples’ well-being.deleted by creator
If you ignore the 80 years of oppression that preceded the Hamas attacks on Israel last year, the Israeli response has been one of genocidal intent. From indiscriminate bombings to cutting off supplies of food, water and other aid. They have directly killed at least 40k people, and likely many more from starvation and preventable diseases.
This could have been easily avoided by a simple prisoner swap. Israel has thousands of Palestinians detained without charge, and Hamas wanted to free them.
The 40k number has been steady since early this year. This is not because Israel stopped its mass murder campaign. Instead, it is because they have destroyed the reporting apparatus itself, killing healthcare workers and bureaucrats in a civilian-targeted ethnic cleansing campaign. There is nobody there to do the counts. The hospitals are largely bombed out. Israel targets all aid workers; there is nobody from international orgs to do the counts.
There are no “good guys” in a conflict between religious people.
Read the excellent Decolonize Palestine website to learn about the vital context that makes Israel’s claim of self defense deeply disingenuous, and to learn about some of the falsehoods about Israel and Palestine that are present in mainstream discourse.
There are no “good guys” in a conflict between religious people.
Religion does play a role in the conflict, particularly over the question of where the border between an Israeli and Palestian state should go (so that holy sites end up on the appropriate side), but I don’t think it’s very useful to understand this as a religious conflict.
The Jews who moved to Israel in the early 20th century weren’t pilgrims. They were refugees fleeing political persecution. The founder of Zionism wasn’t even religious.
And Israel didn’t happen because religious Jews enthusiastically got behind the idea of Zionism. Israel happened because Britain got behind the idea of Zionism.
Because the Crusdaes of the 11th to 13th centuries still loom large in Western culture (Richard the Lionheart and all that), I think Westerners have a tendency to think that the situation in Israel/Palestine is a continuation of those conflicts. But it’s really not. It’s a 20th century creation.
The first violent Zionist settlers started migrating in the late 1800s, not the 20th century, this is more Zionist propaganda that leaves out the early terror in Palestine that foreshadowed the rest of the conflict. These early terror groups were mostly ineffective, but their eventual dissolution lead to Zionist thought spreading to what are now the top supporters and financiers of Israel. the rest of the comment is spot on though.
The largest armed force in the gaza strip is deeply religious and the entire reason the support they receive from their biggest ally, the IRR, is religion. If Hamas were Sunni muslims instead of Shia, Iran would remain silent. Just as they were, when their Shia allies in Syria and Yemen started to massacre non-Shia in the region.
If Hamas were Sunni muslims instead of Shia
Hamas are Sunni.
Hezbollah are Shia.
Arabs leaders was also so stupid, they kicked most of the non zionist jews from Arabs lands in response to kicking out Palestinians after 48 loss instead of trying to make them allies
Your link is broke https://decolonizepalestine.com/
deleted by creator
Where are the good guys in non-religious (scientific) leaders?
They are all scheming to gain more power and control.
Humans are just not emotionally ready to recognize where all this leads.
It’s a terrorist organization vs terrorist state. The only good guys are the civilians dying on both sides.
deleted by creator
Israelis and Palestinians. Many Jews are against what Israel is doing.
Every person I’ve talked to that had some real qualifications on that topic says that Israel are the good guys and the people of Palestine are caught in the crossfire of the war.
Every “qualified” person you talked to says the ethnic supremacist apartheid settler colonists are the good guys?
Which Nazi bars do you hang out in?
In US academia anyone who advocates for the Palestinian cause are regularly purged
Funny you call me “Nazi” when you’re apparently the antisemite who wants to see the state of Israel destroyed.
The state of Israel is an apartheid ethnostate. No apartheid ethnostate should exist, just like it is good that apartheid South Africa no longer exists and was displaced through armed resistance, negotiations, and a plebiscite.
So, tell me which Nazi bars you hang out in where the only “qualified” people are pro-ethnostate.
Are the real qualifications a caliper set and an unwillingness to talk about what they used to do before they got a position in the west German military?
No, the qualifications are people who have studied that conflict for decades and journalists that have been to Gaza and Israel themselves.
I value their opinion significantly higher than the opinion of people on Lemmy that haven’t taken 5 minutes out of their day to read up on the conflict.
And all these people think Israel are the good guys? I wonder what their opinions about apartheid South Africa were at the time.
Israel was explicitly founded as a settler-colonial project, you can look up quotes from famous founding zionists.
“You are being invited to help make history … it doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen, but Jews … How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.”
Theodore Herzl to a Rhodesian representative
So, because the foundations were colonial, we should … kill everyone living in said country?
Is that a serious argument? Because then we have a lot of places to eradicate.
First off, the foundations remain the same, colonial.
Second off, is creating a secular democracy without an apartheid system, aka “destroying Israel” going to kill everyone? Did the collapse of apartheid South Africa kill all the white people there?
The collapse didn’t. But the goal or “Mission” of the Hamas is to eradicate all jews.
So yes, Israel falling would result in the eradication of a vast majority of the Jewish people.
But the goal or “Mission” of the Hamas is to eradicate all jews.
Source that isn’t from the 90s when they were a marginal fundamentalist group and not a leading member of a coalition fighting for a secular democracy?
I mean the whole reason why you are confused is that this is the most complex conflict in the world and here (like everywhere else) you are going to get responses in both directions. I suggest you read what each side has to say for itself: for unconditional pro-Israeli propaganda I suggest https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/ and for unconditional pro-Palestinian propaganda I suggest https://mondoweiss.net/ – read both of these and decide for yourself what arguments on both sides you believe more.
I do not think there are any truly good guys in the conflict; but I do think that Israel is worse and tend to side with the Palestinians. This is mainly because Israel is the side with vastly more power and I think it’s up to the powerful, the oppressor, to try to treat the people they have power over with dignity and try to give up the power they have.
Of course, even that argument of mine has a counter-argument! You can (and should!) read it here: https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-parameters-of-discussion-michael.html
Mondoweiss isn’t unconditional pro-Palestine propaganda. It’s a well-sourced pro-Palestinian news site.
If you believe that, you’re just as biased as they are. Check the archive page from last October and tell us that with a straight face. https://mondoweiss.net/news/page/61/
Maybe provide examples? I see nothing that would prevent me from saying that with a straight face. There, lemme just…
Mondoweiss isn’t unconditional pro-Palestine propaganda. It’s a well-sourced pro-Palestinian news site.
Maybe provide examples? I see nothing that would prevent me from saying that with a straight face.
Gee, I don’t know, I vaguely recall a (perhaps minor) news item happening on the 7th, something about a music festival? I may be misremembering though, since this very impartial news site has no mention of it whatsoever.
So omission bias? All this fanfare for omission bias? Nobody is using Mondoweiss as their primary news source; they have no reason to report on everything, especially an event like Nova music festival was reported on by everyone and their mother.
Mondoweiss is using the same kind of euphemisms around the 7.10 that the rest of the press is using for Israels crimes.
It is not complex at all, it is just genocidal settler colonialism and resistance to it. “Complexity” is just a proxy for being uncomfortable acknowledging this, which is something you should do some introspection on as someone from a German instance. Ever hear of the Holocaust? Of Lebensraum?
Never again means never again for anyone.
The thing is that I actually mostly agree with you, but I do not think that the other side is entirely illegitimate.
Which part of genocidal racist settler colonists is legitimate to you?
What legitimacy do you see in Israeli Apartheid? Because, long story short, that’s what the Israeli side is selling.
I’m not here for a drawn out debate. I think Israel’s settlement program is a major reason why there is no peace and I would find Israel a lot easier to defend if they weren’t doing it. It is only one piece of the puzzle though.
The Middle East has been cooking for so long, it’s impossible to point at a faction that is the “Good Guys”. But right now, one faction is hell-bent on exterminating another nation’s people, both military and civilian, so it should be pretty fucking obvious who the worst “Bad Guys” are. There are no good guys, only victims.
You should read Ramzi Yousef’s statement at his 1998 trial. Terrorist factions like Hezbollah and Hamas exist only because Israel is consistently refusing to make peace through diplomacy.
How about not calling the municipal governments of populations targeted with genocide ‘terrorists’ unless you’re one of the nazis trying to use that as an excuse to exterminate them?
Everyone who opposes genocide, colonialism, and terrorism are the good guys, so neither Israel or Hamas.
But Hamas is not Palestine/Palestinians, the same way that Israel/Zionism is not Jewish/Judaism; no matter how much Israel, Hamas, the media, or military industrial complex tries to conflate them all.
IMO Israel is more to blame than Hamas as they should know better given a) their history of persecution b) their significantly greater wealth and education, and c) their demographics — more than half of all Palestinians are technically children, below 18.
Don’t forget that Hamas has been supported by Netanyahu in the past because they are a useful tool to prevent a longer standing peace…
Yes, both sides are bad. And yes, one is vastly more powerful than the other.
I absolutely agree that the more pressing matter is stopping the Israeli advance in Gaza. But I dislike this argument because it brushes off impact of the October 7th attacks by Hamas.
It cannot be denied that Gaza is a terrible neighbor, same as Israel. No one is in the right here. Everyone is terrible. Yes, stopping the Israeli attack is the most important action now. But Gaza’s actions need to be recognized. Ignoring such things will only create more division and undermine a diplomatic solution.
If you were born in Israel you would hate Gaza. If you were born in Gaza you would hate Israel. What is the solution? In the short term is stop the attacks. But in the long term the solution for both sides is empathy, compassion and diplomacy.
oh right, totally forgot about those poor people who lived and partied next to the concentration camp and then got either kidnapped by people who wanted to break out of the concentration camp or were killed by the IDF. let’s all show a bit more empathy! 😥
It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years. But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.
I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.
When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed. I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel. And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.
Edgelord answer, just kill all religious people. Let their God sort them out. Fix quite a lot of the world’s problems if we ditch religion. that promise of a better “afterlife” sure seems to have made people stop trying to have a better…life.
While you sound reasonable, your mistake seems to be to believie that Judaism is the same as Zionism. It is not. It is completely not. They are inherently incompatible. Learn about it or don’t. I’m not some kind of theological scholar or history professor. Maybe ask your local Rabbi about it.
Anyway, sorry to sound like some kind of an extremist to you, but violence is (at the moment) 100% the only answer. Not against the Jewish people, but against the fascist, zionist apartheid regime, who is committing genocide, right now, right before your eyes. Every day, bless you too.
It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years.
This is a Zionism / Palestinian (and any other independence groups, really) “conflict”, which is to say, occupation and rrsistance.
But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.
Diplomacy requires leverage and is not an inherent good on its own. Diplomacy can be a tool for delay, propaganda, and for achieving a lopsided deal with false representatives. All of these things have been done via US/Israeli “diplomacy” regarding Paleetine.
You see a people forced into a ghetto fighting back and say, “no that’s not the way” as if you have any understanding and have earned an opinion. An important lesson to learn is when you should have no opinion until you become informed.
I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.
The divide is already there. It is genocidal settler-colonial apartheid vs. freedom fighters. And the camps throwing in for each side of this. Personally, I don’t find it difficult to place myself fully in the freedom fighter camp and against the genociders. Do you? And no, there is no third option because there is no third force with any leverage or will.
When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.
The violence has already been here. What on earth are you talking about? What fantasy world do you live in where passive Palestinians are left alone? The Israeli project is premised on their oppression and expulsion.
And you are simply wrong in your generalization. Violence has been essential for virtually every liberation fight. This is not because the marginalized love violence, it is because the oppressor leaves no other options.
I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel.
Israel is an apartheid ethnostate doing a genocide. It is racist and horrible to wish the best for it.
And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.
You don’t deserve an opinion on this topic because you do not know anything about it. You do not get to set the terms of others’ freedom. You should spend your time helping the resistance, not rationalizing a fairy tale about how to oppose settler-colonial genocide with “diplomacy” and no militarized resistance.
Replace US with Israel in this Stokely Carmichael Quote:
“Dr. King’s policy was that nonviolence would achieve the gains for black people in the United States. His major assumption was that if you are nonviolent, if you suffer, your opponent will see your suffering and will be moved to change his heart. That’s very good. He only made one fallacious assumption: In order for nonviolence to work, your opponent must have a conscience. The United States has none.”
Israel, or any bully, will not be swayed by your appeals to their conscience, no matter how hard you try. Ruling classes intentionally spread pacifist propaganda becomes its completely unthreatening to them. Pacifism overall is a losing strategy with zero historical successes, as the article below gets into.
Red Phoenix - Pacifism - How to do the enemy’s job for them. Youtube Audiobook
I think it’s important to differentiate pacifism as a strategy – the total renunciation of anything that could be considered violence, often including even mere property damage – with non-violence as one tactic among many.
Many movements have had success using non-violence as a tactic in certain situations, so long as those movements don’t take the possibility of ever using violence completely off the table (pacifism).
Dr. King also changed his opinion later on. People act like he was some lifelong pacifist without knowing his full history and what changes were caused by his pacifist actions and by other’s more aggressive actions.
I’m extremely confused. The civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s, led by MLK, had massive, sweeping success. Brown v. BOE, Loving v. Virginia, Civil Rights Act of 1964, Voting Rights Act of 1965, Fair Housing Act of 1968, etc. The non-violent strategy succeded in striking down segregation, Jim crow laws, and nearly all forms of legal racial discrimination within a couple decades.
Securing legal rights for minority groups to be treated equally under the law and courts is a losing strategy? What exactly is your objective if you see the civil rights movement as a loss?
I understand that you’re probably not American so you may not have an extensive knowledge of American history. But this is pretty important stuff, and acting like MLK failed because of his non-violent strategy is 1,000,000% wrong. Literally could not be further from the truth.
What did the Black Panthers accomplish with their violent strategy? They committed a few terrorist acts and all ended up dead or in jail. They didn’t secure any major, permanent victories for future generations.
Saying that MLK failed because of his non-violent approach is like saying Julius Caesar failed because he was an ineffective military commander. It’s so incredibly incorrect that I don’t understand how you could ever come to think that.
You did not read the linked article.
And also if you read Michelle Alexander’s the new jim crow, you’ll realize that even de-jure de-segregation has mostly been circumvented / nullified by drug laws. 1 in 5 black men will spend some time in prison in the US, and slavery is still legal in the US under the guise of drug-based imprisonment.
The article gets more into it, but the material wealth divide was completely unaffected by the civil rights “wins”, and poverty is still growing along color lines. I’ll post a few of these below:
- The US currently operates a system of slave labor camps, including at least 54 prison farms involved in agricultural slave labor. Outside of agricultural slavery, Federal Prison Industries operates a multi-billion dollar industry with ~ 52 prison factories , where prisoners produce furniture, clothing, circuit boards, products for the military, computer aided design services, call center support for private companies. 1, 2, 3
- The US has the highest incarceration rates in the world. Even individual US states outrank all other countries.
- Ramping up since the 1980s, the term prison–industrial complex is used to attribute the rapid expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services to government prison agencies. Such groups include corporations that contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology vendors, companies that operate prison food services and medical facilities, private probation companies, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activist groups such as the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) have argued that the prison-industrial complex is perpetuating a flawed belief that imprisonment is an effective solution to social problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental illness, and illiteracy. 1
- The War On Drugs, a policy of arrest and imprisonment targeting minorities, first initiated by Nixon, has over the years created a monstrous system of mass incarceration, resulting in the imprisonment of 1.5 million people each year, with the US having the most prisoners per capita of any nation. One in five black Americans will spend time behind bars due to drug laws. The war has created a permanent underclass of impoverished people who have few educational or job opportunities as a result of being punished for drug offenses, in a vicious cycle of oppression. 1, 2
- In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 200 prison camps, housing over 31,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. 1, 2
- The Obama era was one of the greatest decreases in working class and black wealth, 2 in history: home equity decreased by ~$17k between 2007 and 2016. His housing policies led to millions losing their homes. While Wall street banks recieved $29 Trillion in bailouts, $75 Billion in relief was set aside for housing foreclosures and mortgage assistance. Instead of being paid to families, this was paid to mortgage servicers, and the services found ways to pocket the money and continue foreclosures: by the end of the program, less than 20% of the funds were used, and most had dropped out of the program due to foreclosures. The Obama administration refused to prosecute the fraud, or any of those responsible for the 2008 financial crisis.
Ok I still think it’s wrong to criticize nonviolent resistance but I appreciate the data and links. It is true that I didn’t read the linked article at first.
It’s clear Judaism / Muslim conflicts have caused a lot more suffering to Muslims in Palestine for the last 100+ years. But the solution to this conflict will never be violence. Only diplomacy.
The mental model here is “violence and diplomacy are mutually exclusive”. In fact, they’re very closely connected, almost synonymous.
I’m arguing that such comments can generate hate and divide. You don’t have to agree with me on this, but I at least hope you agree that the solution is not hate, but diplomacy.
Agree here. I grew up in violence and lived through the peace process. It starts out violent, and you win concessions by showing strength, and then negotiate peace. That worked in Ireland in 1998 and almost worked in Palestine in 2000. Violence is the first part of the diplomacy.
When violence is acceptable the weak and marginalized are destroyed.
You’re saying that the weak should go to the negotiating table empty-handed, but that won’t solve anything for them. They need to stop being weak and start being strong, then diplomacy can start to happen.
The solution to weakness is strength. How can the weak become strong without the Armalite?
The Catholics took up arms in 1968 and came to the negotiating table in 1998. We won some concessions because we showed strength for 31 years, not “empathy”. Yasser Arafat understood this: he knew when to use violence and when to negotiate. If you defang yourself as Step One, you make diplomacy impossible.
I only wish the best for Gaza and Israel. And in my opinion the solution is empathy and diplomacy. It’s obviously terribly hard to negotiate and empathize with your abuser. But in my opinion, if this sentiment doesn’t start the conflict will only stop when the weaker side is destroyed. I hope we can respect each other. Bless you.
I admire your values, but you’re incorrectly equating “empathy and diplomacy”. Diplomacy is more a military matter; empathy has no place in realpolitik.
