My crippled kernel count is around 6, how about yours?
I remember managing to install two DE one above the other, and having them, somehow working at the exact same time. That was trippy.
I didn’t even know how I did it. I’m pretty sure that I couldn’t replicate that on purpose.
It’s the same as learning anything, really. A big part of learning to draw is making thousands of bad drawings. A big part of learning DIY skills is not being afraid to cut a hole in the wall. Plan to screw up. Take your time, be patient with yourself, and read ahead so none of the potential screw-ups hurt you. Don’t be afraid to look foolish, reality is absurd, it’s fine.
We give children largess to fail because they have everything to learn. Then, as adults, we don’t give ourselves permission to fail. But why should we be any better than children at new things? Many adults have forgotten how fraught the process of learning new skills is and when they fail they get scared and frustrated and quit. That’s just how learning feels. Kids cry a lot. Puttering around on a spare computer is an extremely safe way to become reacquainted with that feeling and that will serve you well even if you decide you don’t like Linux and never touch it again. Worst case you fucked up an old laptop that was collecting dust. That is way better than cutting a hole in the wall and hitting a pipe.
So this is why I’m bad at drawing. I have 954 more drawings to go!
See that would be a good analogy if the fail was fun.
Making a shit painting is still fun.
Having to reinstall my OS because I ran pacman -Syu and now my computer won’t boot, and now I have to spend hours making things work again: not at all fun.
Having my server run out of memory and freeze up instead of having a sane out of memory behavior the day before a long trip: not fun
It’s also archaic, niche information. Do I want to learn how to make a kernel version that didn’t get installed right show up in grub? Fuck no. Do I want to google for the 100th time what command exists to register the encryption key for my hard drive in the TPM? Fuck no. What an absolute waste of life.
Linux isn’t “I cut a hole in my wall” it’s “my electrician only documented the wiring in hieroglyphs and now I have to reverse engineer everything to turn on a light bulb”.
… So what should I try Linux again?
You mean why? Because you’re using your bare machine, you can use it as you wish. No nanny software limiting the fun or productivity
Yeah but breaking like six computers to do it, or one computer six times, seems like a pretty steep price for that when I basically just use my computer for gaming browsing and the occasional audio/video edit.
Nah, if you’re installing something user friendly (ie Linux Mint just for an example) it’ll work 1st time, guaranteed - or your money back.
But… you’ll only really learn once you’ve fubar’d something… just like
falling offriding a bikeI want double my money back if the free program doesn’t work!
OP said breaking the kernel, not the machine. The computers would be fine, its pretty damn difficult to brick a computer using software, at least by accident.
Normal users will not break their kernel, op is likely doing some advanced tinkering. I have been using Linux for years and am definitely an advanced user and Ive broken my kernel zero times.
I just spent 11 days on a dual boot repair in fstab, passwd, loads of ecryptfs, amongst other boot and login issues. Before restoring from the full system backup after getting mad to finally want to use my PC. 11 fucking days almost all day in terminal. TOO many partitions and too many folders inside of folders to get to my ecryptfs files. I got so lost LSing around.
After it all though, and it was an aneurism and a half. I still want to finish my goal and reinstall my dual boot this time correctly aiming the folders correctly.
I would actually be amazed if I ever bricked a PC fucking around with installing software to it. At the very worst, I might have to move a jumper pin to flash the CMOS and start fresh like I never even touched the thing. If somehow even that fails, it would be a unique experience.
I’m not sure I’ve ever actually killed a system, I’ve booted from UEFI shell manually just to recover systems. Back when I was using arch id just chroot into the system from a flash drive and fix whatever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is the way!
Pretty much everytime I try to do fancy stuff with the bootloader I get pretty close to nuking systems. Worst was my 1st UEFI system where I was trying to get rEFInd to show multiple OS to boot from… eventually gave up and went back to the warm embrace of GRUB
If you take the plunge and switch to systemd-boot it’s worth it. It’s the only boot manager I’ve tried in the last decade that feels like an upgrade from GRUB.
I just had 8 titles in boot menu all for the same OS. 🤌😅 I know exactly what I’m doing. It’s a dual boot system.
I’ve been running different versions of Linux since 2011. My crippled kernel count is still zero to this day.
And that’s even after stripping it of the drivers I’ll never need, stripping it of the languages I’ll never need, and even rerouting all temporary files, internet cache, and even core OS log files to tmpfs and ramfs.
Yeah, try troubleshooting an OS with no log files after reboot. Yeah, I can do that, hella performance boost!
Another big part is learning how to set it up in a way that it’s functional and productive the first time and then STOP FUCKING WITH IT.
That also sounds like a good way to stop learning!
you can either have a system to learn on, or a stable system to work on.
Not quite. But sorta, yeah.
Learning to “not fuck with it” or ways to do so and rollback are valid lessons themselves.
Being able to segregate “production” and “development” environments is very valuable.
Being able to segregate “production” and “development” environments is very valuable.
This is a best practice that pretty much everyone, eventually, discovers on their own.
Maybe 1 or 2 back when things were less stable, but any time I have used Linux in the past 7 years or so, and particularly since I started using Debian as my primary OS, I haven’t had any problems outside of trying to get some windows applications to emulate correctly, and one time when I echo’d into sources.list with > instead of >>. Anything else is just stuff I had to learn, like my boot partition filling up with old images that have to be cleaned out occasionally.
If you want shit to just work when you want and stay out the way when you aren’t using it. Debian of whatever source is what they call stability. I’ve done rolling, and bleeding edge. It’s all a constant pain. Becomes a job to maintain or bug track or check logs. I’ll never go back.
I started nearly 30 years ago and cannot count the dead systems I have left in my wake. Just on the 2000-ish thing where Dell first offered Linux but it was inherently unstable after booting the pre-written disk image if you touched it, alone… So many kernel sanity failures…
I’m lucky to have only had one system nuked by a faulty power supply that shut down during a kernel update.
I usually just reinstalled back then. But I didn’t get into it till the late nineties. Back when Ian was still on the list serves.
Unless you mean nuking the OS or borking the bootloader. Then yeah, countless.
They died for a reason, for yor growth
True, sacrifices on the altar of the God Sysadmin, and their divine mount Er’orreport
The “starting over” part is what made it take so long for linux to “stick” with me.
Once it became “restore from an earlier image”, it was a game changer!
“Starting over” is how we learnt Windows in the 90’s too
Giving our computer ghonorrea by downloading Napster mp3s
I’d just re-install Windows over the top of the fucked up install normally. It was a bit easier to recover from, and a bit harder to fuck up
I could be weird for this but the starting over part actually contributed to me continuing to use linux tbh. Trying out a new distro, figuring out how to use it, and building a new user interface each time I killed my system kept me engaged with linux beyond its utility. It functioned essentially as a way to learn about computers and as a creative outlet. I don’t fuck around and find out as much as I used to but I still swap distro every year or so.
It was similar for me, but not quite the same. The thing I hated was starting from scratch. I’m very much not a distro hopper. Back in the day, I enjoyed the challenge of trying to troubleshoot issues and get the system working again, and that kept me interested, but eventually, I’d hit a problem I couldn’t resolve, and I’d have to start again from scratch, and at that point, I’d just go back to Windows.
Now, I still get to do the same thing. If I break it, I get to learn how I broke it and try and fix it, and I find that process compelling. But because I’m using btrfs restore points now, I don’t get to the point where I have to start again from scratch. So I can work at solving it to the limit of my abilities, with confidence that if I can’t work it out, it’s not a huge issue.
My game changer was circa 2014 when I broke something and got dropped to a basic shell and for the first time instead of panicking and immediately reinstalling I thought for a moment about what I had just done to break it, and undid the change manually. Wouldn’t you know it booted right up like normal.
The lesson here: if it broke, you probably broke it, and if you know how you broke it, you know how to fix it.
100%
The alternative being variations on:
Hi my name is [redacted], I have [X] years experience.
Please run
sfc /scannow.You can find more help at [Irrelevant KB URL].
Please rank me 5 stars.
Ticket closed
Tell me more
Timeshift was a gamechanger
Timeshift itself borked my shit up. I had to reinstall all registered packages to fix its fuckups…
sudo aptitude reinstall '~i'Edit: Sure it took a long while, about as long as a full OS reinstall, but never once was there any issue with the kernel.
I also can’t get over the fact that it doesn’t understand RAID or filesystems somehow.
While only once, timeshift destroyed my bootloader. Don’t update and reboot before a meeting, kids
My test of Timeshift was pretty simple and straightforward.
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Fresh install Linux Mint
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Install most of the main software I wanted.
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Do a Timeshift backup.
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Install some extra software I didn’t necessarily need, but might want to use someday.
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Restore the backup from step 3.
Results: Everything from step 4 was still registered as installed, but almost nothing from step 4 actually worked.
So I brute force reinstalled everything in place, and haven’t used Timeshift since. I’m perfectly comfortable using the terminal, and at worst a live boot media, to fix any issues that might come up.
Timeshift is a good piece of software doing a tired trick.
The new hotness is copy on write file systems and snapshots. I can snapshot, instantly, then do a system update and revert to the previous snapshot also instantly.
Instead of using symlinks files, like Timeshift, the filesystem is keeping track of things at the block level.
If you update a block it writes a new copy of the block (copy on write). The old copy is still there and will be overwritten unless it is part of a snapshot. Since the block is already written, snapshots don’t require any data to be copied so they’re instant.
Once you finish the system update, all of the overwritten blocks are still there (part of the snapshot) and reverting is also just a filesystem operation, theres no mass data to be copied and so it is also instant.
It does use disk space, as allocated blocks AND snapshotted blocks are stored. It uses less than Timeshift though, since Timeshift copies the entire file when it changes
ZFS and btrfs are the ones to use.
Didn’t quite follow what you were saying completely. Are you suggesting a new program over time shift or change the file system type like ZFS and Btrfs? I’m using Ubuntu and not sure if I seen those before.
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Every time I install or configure anything, it’s done via CLI and added to a script. Makes setup a breeze.
1
Never the kernel but just about every time I touch /etc/fstab I fuck something up. I’ve done that a lot…
Oh, I typed that line wrong to mount the drive and because the non-os drive isn’t detected you’re only going to boot to emergency mode?
Cool cool cool.
It’s even better if your only internet connection is that computer you broke.
Great incentive to learn even faster
Ah yes, reminds me of messing with my 1st pfSense firewall… I learned how good their recovery process was that evening
Just bricked my Proxmox install an hour ago and I had the pleasure to learn their recovery process sucks. (At least for my case)
Ah, yeah, you’ve just reminded me, I must move my stuff off proxmox when I get a chance.
I tried that proxmox backup thing when I first set it up, good god what a complex mess… backup & recovery needs to be as simple and as smooth as possible.
This is the nightmare of my last 2 weeks. Well 11 days.
