look, i really don’t want to be having this conversation right now

Then i won’t insist, but i thought about you when i saw this recent law in Pakistan, opposed by journalists, this is what i’m worried about :
https://apnews.com/article/pakistan-senate-passes-controversial-social-media-bill-6125f7cf9186714cbedc9a7489a52200
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/pakistani-journalists-rally-against-law-regulating-social-media-2025-01-28

Until Bolsonaro or someone similar is elected and starts enforcing a fact checking you disagree with.
Defending/Relativizing the Holodomor(, which didn’t happened only in Ukraine back then,) is forbidden in some countries, and it’s not hard to imagine hate speech laws forbidding the debunking of the “uyghur genocide”, as some were censored back then.
The democrats made a mistake in using these laws against Donald Trump, but we(sterners) will probably end up controlling the information on the Internet as we did in the legacy/mainstream medias.

Well, i’d like to say that jews(, and religious people,) aren’t supposed to lie, but most of the israelis are only “cultural”(?) jews anyway…
It’s the first time that our timeline is full with palestinians celebrating the end, i hope that they won’t have been celebrating too early and that the Golan Heights will be enough for Israel.
As Caitlin Johnstone wrote, this is encouraging ?

But yeah, i agree : we’ll see.

And then we have westerners who don’t see the obvious differences with the Ukraine-Russia conflict :

• Each time that Ukraine didn’t have an anti-russian president they were coup’d with the support of the west, in 2004 and 2014 ;
• We(sterners) invested a lot to ‘drive them away from’/‘use them against’ Russia, including with the n.e.d., the u.s.a.i.d., etc. ;
• Ukraine wrote in its constitution that they’ll join n.a.t.o., and they were indeed helped more&more by the n.a.t.o. since 2014 ;
• Crimea and the Donbass voted to join Russia since 1991(, like Transnistria) ;
• etc.
  Since Crimea and the Donbass are russian, it is Ukraine that aimed to invade Russia since 2014.
  Well, just pointing out that when we’ll stop looking at Israel we’ll be back to pointing our eyes at Ukraine.

Oh, you’re in favor of the biased fact-checking ? Like, you think that, e.g., in the case of the Ukraine-Russia war, we wouldn’t get banned for citing obvious facts that contradict the western propaganda ?
How could you ever think that censorship will favor the “extremes”(, left or right) ? Lemmygrad is quite often opposed to the general consensus, don’t be so naive 🙄
(During covid, some real informations, e.g about the origins of the virus or alternative treatments, were censored, and we’ve seen the same biases in politics, in case you forgot)
It’s already forbidden to support “terrorists”, or to do “genocide” apologia, among other things that are used to censor our voice and avoid having a contradictory debate.

It’s not because they (possibly )knew that they necessarily wanted it to happen though ?
Just that if they ever knew about something so secret, then they probably didn’t say “no”, and more something like “it’s your responsibility” instead ?

For what it’s worth : if they instigated something like that, it’d probably not come without a formation of the korean citizen’s mindset first, and we(sterners) would probably have felt this preparation at home as well.
Well, on the other side coups were apparently quite frequent in the 50s-80s, so my guess is as good as yours.

Good to remember by the way that, as you know, like Hong-Kong and Taiwan, these countries were among the western-backed dictatorships, so their history books are different than ours :

• Rhee Syngnam from 1948 to 1960 ;
• Park Chung-hee from 1961 to 1979 ;
• and Chun Doo-hwan from 1980 to 1988.

There are many countries in the region, but Myanmar is special since it only stopped being a dictatorship in 2011, after 49 years, yet they went back in 2021.
We also supported Suharto until its disappearance from 1967 to 1998, the Philippines from 1965 to 1986, etc.
And it’s probably worth mentioning the authoritarian South Vietnam as well(, 1955-1963), due to the similarities with Korea.
And we’ll remember the Khmer rouge, but not the authoritarian and western-backed Lon Nol.
We(sterners) also supported the military regimes in Thailand, anything but communism.
Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore was also considered authoritarian.

I don’t think that there are a lot of countries in Africa, South America, or South-East Asia, who escaped (western-backed )dictatorships, but it’d have been worse if freedom wasn’t among our most important “universal” values(, after anti-communism, anti-islamism, and anti-‘whatever influent ideology survived the colonization’), let’s say that we(sterners) were “forced” and that we couldn’t possibly live peacefully with commies&others, for a reason i’ve yet to fully grasp since we could probably live in peace while staying capitalists with the right measures/protections, guess they preferred the cold war rather than taking the risk.

(the link to the original thread was in the selftext b.t.w.)

It seems like the last record for today hasn’t been published yet, if it’s indeed there that we should look to find the source.
However, false-flags are unfortunately awfully common since it gives us/them a.n excuse/‘casus belli’(, e.g., and we know it for using it ourselves, or willingly accepting an attack, or “forcing”(, we always have a choice if we accept to bear the consequences,) the hands of their enemies while pretending it was unprovoked, such as ~‘with Pearl Harbor due to the lack of oil’, or the 7th of October due to the ongoing colonization of Palestine, etc. It’s never purely angelic on one side vs. diabolical on the other, hopefully both sides are trying to be/do good, but the winners will write the history books and real/amoral selfish politic is considered more efficient).

There are mounting suspicions that former Defense Minister Kim Yong-hyun intended to justify the declaration of martial law or a state of united defense by instigating a military conflict with North Korea by ordering strikes on the sites from which the North was launching trash-filled balloons and flying unmanned drones to Pyongyang.

— https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1172239.html

Ah, f*ck, if they’re still socialists then i messed up(, not that it’s what you’re saying).
Even if the c.c.m. is the heir of Nyerere since multipartism was introduced in 1992, it’d still be a stretch to consider them communists, right ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chama_Cha_Mapinduzi

Furthermore :

In the early 1980s, with a change of President and following a period of sharp economic decline, Tanzania shifted course away from the socialist agenda pursued since 1967 towards a more market-oriented economy.
In 1986, the Government embarked on its first comprehensive adjustment program. One of the central elements of the Government’s reform agenda has been a privatization program.
During 1994-1998, Tanzania divested about 270 public enterprises (PEs). These included mainly small-medium PEs in tradable goods sectors, but also a number of large PEs (e.g., brewery, cigarette factory). In some cases, such as leather, privatization of PEs has opened up markets for private entrepreneurs and improved output and efficiency. There have, however, also been cases in some sectors where delays in divestiture have contributed to deterioration of fixed assets, and created uncertainty which has limited private investment.
In late 1996 the Government of Tanzania (GOT) decided to expand the privatization program to divest all major utility and infrastructure PEs (water, telecommunications, ports, railways, electricity) banking, agriculture and mining PEs. The GOT’s stated aim is to divest all of these enterprises by the end of 2000.
However, in practice, it is expected that divestiture of the remaining 230 PEs will take longer, and some (notably in infrastructure) will be opened to private investment in stages over the medium to long term.

And i haven’t found a Gini index before 1991 :

(i’m less criticizing them for not being socialist enough, other political parties could do worse b.t.w., than defending the assertion made in my title there)
I didn’t expected this 98% to be so exceptional if i’m understanding wikipedia right : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chama_Cha_Mapinduzi#Electoral_history

Just a note on this :

While it is probably just that they werent counted yet

It’s unrelated to the rest of your comment, but i wanted to underline something here : California has 25.2M eligible voters(, based on the VEP column from the document given by @multitotal above). If we’ve only counted half of their votes, then it’s there that we’ll find most of the missing 15.5M votes.
Since California overwhelmingly votes Democrat(, appr. 66%-33%), then it may be fair to assume 8M more votes for K.Harris and 4M for D.Trump, and they’re separated by 4M votes.
In the end, Kamala Harris probably got almost as many votes as Donald Trump but i’ve yet to read a newspaper saying that. Even if it won’t change the outcome of the election obviously, and i was too young/uninterested in 2016 to say if newspapers correctly reported from the beginning that H.Clinton ended up with more votes than D.Trump, i think that something so obvious/easy should have been noticed, or perhaps that i’m mistaken again and/or that they don’t really care since the results stay unchanged.

Just to add that a lot of people are focused on explaining these results by the votes of minorities, even if it’s mostly white people voting republican(, confirmations : 1, 2, 3, 4), yet when we look at it, it didn’t evolve that much between 2012 and 2020(, here’s for 2020, and here’s for 2024). I’m not saying that there’s nothing to say about the hispanic vote, but it just feels ‘less pertinent’/‘too simple’ once you see the ups&downs, i.d.k., there’s probably more pertinent infos, such as the inflation or something(, i.d.k.), here’s my 2cts on your election 🤷.
In any case, it’s too obvious to even point out, but journalists didn’t explained the results solely by the hispanic vote, so i can’t criticize some biases towards oversimplification here, and since i’ve checked i can confirm that the hispanic vote is indeed a noticeable change like we’re being told(, even if it doesn’t seem to be particular to D.Trump, but something that began ~20 years ago, at least here&there, but not here&there).
This seems like a good news for our instance though.

(and it shouldn’t be controversial to state that Jan6 wasn’t a coup, and that those who were there shouldn’t be in jail, their liberation is now a given and that’s one less injustice)

And if they don’t have the same source, it confirms the WaPo’s 65% with its 64.52%(, in the VEP_TURNOUT_RATE column)

we’re making some error somewhere

Yeah, you’re right, it’s too obvious, anyone can do 72.6M+68M+2.2M and easily see that it’s only ~143M out of 158.5, so we’re indeed making an obvious mistake somewhere. They’re probably simply not counted yet, as you said(, California is slow here).

It says those are expected vote totals for states where less than 97 percent of the vote has been counted

We may have understood it the same way, yet just to be sure : The turnout is counted normally, except for states where less than 97% of the votes are counted, in which case the reported turnout has been replaced by the expected turnout.

That sounds to me like a lot of Dem voters didn’t show up

You’re right, if they didn’t voted for third parties, if the votes are mostly counted, if the voter turnout is the same, and if republicans didn’t received more votes than in 2020, then where did these 14M votes went ?
Thanks for confirming that i’m missing something, don’t know if you or someone here have the explanation.

Ideally, stats by categories would be more useful to draw a conclusion, but at first sight it doesn’t seem so though :

At first, i agreed with the explanations based on the lack of cohesion of the democratic party, and the influence of Palestine, on the votes :

With most votes counted, the 2024 election elected D.Trump with ~73M votes vs. ~68M for K.Harris, compared to 2020 when D.Trump was rejected despite having the same numbers(, 74.2M,) and J.Biden was elected with 81.3M votes.
Furthermore, D.Trump would have received less votes without influent people like Robert Kennedy Jr. on his side, who still received votes apparently.
However, third parties like the libertarian party or the Green party received much more votes in 2016 than in 2024(, and the republican&democratic parties much less). Having gained 1M votes at most wouldn’t have that much of an impact.
(I’ve also sometimes heard(, mostly twitter, but here’s msnbc,) that the 2.5M muslim-americans voted D.Trump in opposition but that’s not supported(source), even if J.Stein should have obtained much more if these surveys were trustworthy).
While i can’t deny the influence of many pro-Palestine actors, i can’t really prove it by the numbers either, and some deny its importance. Also, the high voter turnout doesn’t favor the alternative of a boycott.
I only took a superficial look, so i don’t doubt that there’re many americans here who could easily correct my mistakes if they want to

Yeah, it was already the case with J.Añez coup, i can’t remember when i’ve ever seen another astroturfing campaign like that one. You had dozens of accounts with pictures, infographics and videos accusing him of being a drug dealer, a pedophile and rapist, …, the end justifies the means or w/e. And then it suddenly completely disappeared, and the last time i checked >90% of the comments posted back then were deleted(, i.i.r.c.).
I’ve quickly checked their “arguments”, but it’s more insults and insinuations than real proofs, the lawfare against his “human trafficking” is shamelessly using again these rumors because Evo is ahead in the polls, just like J.Añez did, they don’t really have anything solid.
Now such accounts are kinda re-appearing but it’s still less(, in number and intensity,) than back then.
Luis Arce doesn’t have any astroturfing campaign against him. Don’t really know what to add and a bit lazy to document myself more extensively on these accusations, and journalists hate him. At first sight a paternity test should be enough to reach a conclusion, w/e…

If anyone here is motivated enough to search through https://www.facebook.com/RadioKawsachunCoca, it seems like the article was mistaken when it said that Evo recognized having shot at the tires of the car, he was apparently recounting in his weekly emission what happened under tension, and quickly said that “he” fired instead of “they” fired.
I’m less than sure to have correctly understood what i wrote above. Usually i wouldn’t make such correction without looking for more infos, but my spanish is bad and i don’t have time for that(, i already spent a lot of time arguing on lemmy.world these last days), so if anyone’s interested&motivated, they could find the extract and see if it was an honest mistake or just another dishonest accusation from Arce’s government.
It also seems worth adding that they refused.
Finally, we don’t know if Arce received pressure/threats from foreign governments of what would happen if Evo became president, i.d.k., just thinking out loud here, it wouldn’t really make sense otherwise…

Edit : Yeah, ok, the mistake is really obvious, no need to check :

“We ducked down, since they were blocking us, we sped up, ran a fair bit, and the second car following us barely made it across, it kept following us, caught up, (I heard) more shots. I shot at the tire of the car that was there, it couldn’t keep going, and we quickly switched to the second car, and they kept shooting,” Morales said in an interview with Kawsachun Coca on Sunday.

The “policemen” obviously shot at the tire of their car and that’s why they switched to the second car, otherwise the sentence makes no sense.
They would be dead without a second car.

Another proof that the Arce government is lying with their testimony of policemen being shot at “confirmed” by Evo Morales Ayma’s testimony. He’s likely to be the culprit in regard to his lies&behavior.

« A total of 1,030 people — including 156 women and 87 children — have been killed in Israeli strikes in Lebanon in less than two weeks, the country’s health minister said Saturday. » (source)

of course it’s better than France since France is still colonial imperialist power and this hellhole was once SFRY

(don’t know why i chuckled at your “of course”, i’ve only spent a few days on lemmy.world and already forgot what Lemmygrad was like, quite apart from the rest of the Internet :))

I still don’t entirely agree with the term fascism, even if i could see how the rhetoric about muslims in France is close to the rhetoric about jews in the past, e.g., they’re destroying the fabric of society by not being french enough, and are a threat solely by their identity, an annoyance to get rid of, even an attack.
But their militarism isn’t as exacerbated(, which could be explained solely by the context), the same goes for their nationalism as well(, even if they’re not internationalist, and if hearing America first or France first, even at the expense of other countries, isn’t uncommon), and it’s always a bit worrying to hear them praise order and the restoration of authority.
They’re still in favor of bourgeois democracy though, without public plans for a stronger leadership, don’t openly support censorship, or express themselves as being a third way against liberalism.
They don’t talk about the “french race” as inherently superior to the others with a classification of the different races in a biological way, nor put forward the virile/military strength of the male in order to save the nation.
When they talk about our past you can feel that monarchism isn’t entirely dead in the heart of some of them, but damn, you can also almost even hear them talk of direct democracy sometimes(, although it may be a french exception).
But even if i personally consider the qualification fascism as an exaggeration since it can always be worse, i can see how it’s similar, it’s perhaps indeed more a question of quantity/intensity than quality/nature.
It’s just that being pro-capitalist seems enough of a slur for me 🤷, it means legalizing theft and heading back to a feodal society(, even if technological progress may change this course towards more inequalities).

some people love China and view it in positive light

Yeah, we don’t have that here, they’re a dictatorship that persecute its opposition and if it falls we’ll applaud this liberation. No need to explain to you why that’s bullshit and revolting.

extreme racism against Roma

That’s everywhere indeed, they’re seen as criminals/thieves who don’t want to work(, how could they without papers ?), people seeing their encampments sometimes think that it’s disgusting and should go away, even if they’re still allowed to stay quite a few years in the end, and it’s not to the point of Ukraine for whom i’ve seen videos of pogroms against the Romani people(, i remember a video where they were chased in the woods), this could happen if our economic situation deteriorates.
I don’t believe in national essentialism, or thinking that the poors deserve their fate(, since they don’t have the same ‘birth privileges’/‘starting advantages’,) instead of being born at the wrong place/time and just needing help as we all do… I don’t know if you have this expression in Serbia to criticize the actions of our government “strong with the weak, and weak with the strong”. Well, everything can always be worse, at least we’ve avoided the horrors of war…

Here’s something i’ve just seen that may be indicative(, or be a wrong example i.d.k.), if you translate these comments then you’ll see that most people are supporting the condemnation of two protestors that will live two whole years in a jail cell for dirtying a glass protection, absolutely zero damage was caused(, i don’t know how they attained the number of 10.000£), we’re not allowed to do violent protests and that’s the most nonviolent i could think of, it even made a bit of publicity for this art piece. I can’t understand the state but even worse it’s all of these comments that i cannot understand, they’re either against ecology(, why ?), or mistakenly believed that this art piece was ruined(, i doubt it), i don’t know, that’s the “strong against the weak” part, as for the “weak against the strong” there’s private-public partnerships(, e.g., highway tolls), or the tax evasion&avoidance, etc., you’re not going to hit the friends that helped you after all 🤷
It was retweeted by someone, Guillaume Meurice, who worked in one of the last public medias that we still have for more than a decade, and was fired, unbelievably, because of a segment in which he jokingly said while laughing that « In fact, Netanyahu is like Hitler, but without a foreskin », i shit you not it’s for that sole reason officially and nothing else, i can’t understand why a lot of people agreed that he went too far and had to be fired, in my eyes i’m convinced that he was fired for being probably (one of )the last “leftist” in our medias(, clearly not a communist propagandist/theorician mind you, we don’t have that in France except on the Internet, but he’s not against the idea of communism, he’s for a more humane capitalism, and criticize our excesses).
Here’s another example seen today, even if examples aren’t as solid/serious as mentioning statistics and laws.

Well, i’ll not make my review of the whole state of France(, not sure i’d be able to anyway), but here’s some anecdotes as well, could be worse, could be better.

I consider myself to be much more of a theocrat than a communist, i see the latter as a consequence of the former, and if i had to choose between God and anything else then the choice is immediately done(, the most extreme would be to ask me to choose between God and what i consider to be virtuous, even if i can’t imagine such situation).
I’m probably one of the only theocrat on Lemmygrad, but i don’t think it’s against the rules as long as i’m still communist, if you ever want to convince me that religions should disappear, i’m interested in such debate(, otherwise feel free to ignore this paragraph :)), the only thing i’m missing from reddit are those subreddits dedicated to debates(, even if it takes time).

Thank you very much, i forgot about privatizations, and initially thought you were talking about brand new industries 100% paid by the state immediately given to foreign hands(, the steel mill factory in Silesia being built in the 70s).
But yeah, it could have brought a lot of money to the state coffers instead of the same foreign capitalist hands. Our public workers have(had) better salaries and working conditions than private ones in France, and it’s strangely used as an argument against public enterprises rather than against private enterprises. We’re quick to say that these better conditions means higher prices(, but higher salaries means being able to buy at higher prices anyway), yet we’ll ignore that higher dividends also mean higher prices, and public enterprises usually have zero dividends as well as fewer salary gaps.

Well, in any case, that was informative, and i didn’t know about the gift of japanese state-owned enterprises to the zaibatsus, thanks !

I’ve quickly documented myself on the “polish economic miracle” a few years ago, but only remember that it was linked with millions of polish working in other european countries, as well as important foreign direct investments, you seem knowledgeable so perhaps could you redirect me towards some explanations for this, or take a bit of your time to explain it to me yourself ? I’ve also postponed the understanding for China’s success, this topic of “Why do some countries become wealthy and not others” is among the most interesting possible.
Also, having never heard of Poland(, or any country for that matter,) funding 100% of a company while leaving the dividends to foreign hands, i’d like to know more about that as well if you have the time and/or a link.

Wow, that was very informative on more than one level, i wrote answers to more than a dozen comments these past days and yours is probably my favorite, thanks !

The situation you described initially reminded me of accounts i’ve read from eastern europe, but then progressively i’ve realized that it’s probably the same in other countries with the rise of the far-right everywhere and the displacement of the Overton window. In France we’ve pretty much sold every single public company, and Serbia is incredibly much more socialist than i first thought, you almost don’t have any communists in France, our far-far-left political parties are trostkyists that are anti-Russia(, i’ll still vote for them obviously, our medias wouldn’t leave them alone if they supported Venezuela, Russia, etc., and don’t even begin with North Korea,) and probably consider China a dictatorship, while our “socialist party” has been capitalist for decades, etc. Serbia in comparison doesn’t seem worse, i’ve lived all my life without knowing what socialism means, you still have remnants.
Once capitalists are in power, it’s not surprising for anti-communism to be on the rise, please don’t blame the population too much for not taking weapons, we’ll have to do counter-propaganda ideally but our funds are more meager and i could understand if it seems like a lost cause. For that matter, i don’t think that a communist revolution is likely to happen in France(, where i’m from,) either, nor in the u.s.a.
I misunderstood what you meant by “there is no saving” before, i thought that you were, e.g., french or american, and deemed these countries much worse than your own, when you’re in fact comparing it the inspiring Yugoslavia of Tito(, believe it or not, despite its closeness, most french people don’t know him and forgot about Yugoslavia, and he would obviously be classified as a dictator for not having bourgeois democracy). I didn’t realize that your criticism came from the inside, but please do not despair ! Things change, and indeed these graphs show that Serbia isn’t as anti-China as you thought(, the same goes for Hungary), it’s at least one reason to rejoice.

Ah, and pardon me, but your grandmother seems awesome(, do you have any idea what my family members believes in(, i’m honestly not complaining) ? Having a grandmother that likes Lenin&Stalin and even believes that V.Putin is a crypto-socialist seems awesome/unbelievable, congratulations, she’s even surfing the web, and she stops when he’s talking about the replacement theory ? Man, we also have whole channels and political parties that talk about this all day, my grandmother has already integrated this as a fact many years ago and believes that immigrants are the cause of crimes, not poverty(, and is also certain that crimes are on the rise, like a lot of people, even if surveys show the contrary, we’re beyond being anti-communist by forgetting about it)).
(For the record, i’m not saying that being against economic immigration is immoral, but not treating the unfair causes is, because i’m picturing an hopefully false future in which we’ll live centuries among richs behind our walls, while the rest of our human family lives ‘exploited by’&‘poorer than’ us with, e.g., an inferior salary, if i’m wrong and international inequalities aren’t a moral problem, or will soon disappear, then let’s “save our culture from destruction” by closing our borders to these poorer/exploited guys, otherwise let’s focus instead on treating the causes(, while making sure it won’t bite us afterwards,) because i certainly don’t want such selfish future)

B.t.w., are you financially independent with your own place ? If not, it’ll get better at this moment according to my experience, some people are annoying(, but, i mean, your aunt still claim to be socialist, my family members don’t even want to debate so i’m explicitly told to shut up each time(, we’ll still love each other though, just that no politics or any other debate is allowed, you can imagine how watching the news while eating quickly gets challenging :))), but even if they’re annoying you’ll have to challenge yourself as this is the occasion to bring the best of yourself, to try small pertinent comments in a loving voice if you manage to, and take time to let them explain their worldview to you even if you already know it(, sometimes ending their sentences if it gets too long).
That’s just my personal opinion, we’re here to make this world a better place aren’t we ? Nobody’s perfect(, very clearly myself first).

I’ve got time, so we could be (learning from each other by) having a debate on religion and/or conspirationnism if you’re in a mood for that(, debating is fun and instructive ?). But i’ll totally understand if you lack the time and/or will to continue this discussion for too long.