And I’m being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don’t understand it. Can someone please “steelman” that argument for me?

  • @orcrist@lemm.ee
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    217 days ago

    If you have a friend or family member, living or dead in Palestine, how could you vote for her? Even knowing Trump would probably be worse, it’s hard to imagine the pain it would cause to choose her name, knowing what she supported, and would have continued to encourage.

    (Others mentioned other reasons, and I won’t repeat theirs.)

    • @lurklurk@lemmy.world
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      216 days ago

      I’d probably vote for the option causing a bit less suffering in Gaza, as hard as I could. I would not refuse to vote because the lesser evil was still bad.

      It’s not hard really

  • @RandomVideos@programming.dev
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    3316 days ago

    The arguments against voting in the USA sound similar to the trolley problem

    Some people wouldnt choose to be the reason of the death of one person even if doing nothing causes the death of multiple people

    • @prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      16 days ago

      Yeah but also they all die anyway. Nobody is “saved” in this situation. In fact, it’s way worse now.

      What’s going to happen in Gaza is going to be horrifying.

    • This is very american - these Gaza supporters protest the suffering of people thousands of miles away and yet think it is okay to bring suffering to everyone in his/her own street

    • @SlothMama@lemmy.world
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      Yes, this is how I felt. I would rather not choose to vote for the ‘lesser of two evils’ and pretend that’s good. It’s not just Gaza though, it’s corporatism, war profiteering, and terrible policy.

      I would rather see the system collapse and possibly die in the process than support another shitty government even if it’s the less shitty one.

      • @TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
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        16 days ago

        That’s a horrible outlook, and I’m sorry you’ve been driven to that point. I understand, as I have been there before.

        Now that I’m older, I realize that pulling the lever is the right thing to do as much as it hurts. I don’t think letting apathy win and watching the government go full Fash was the correct choice, but I don’t blame you, or others who decided the same. The system isn’t going to collapse, though, it’s just going to get a lot shittier for awhile.

    • knightly the Sneptaur
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      416 days ago

      Literally all of the third party voters could have voted a straight Democrat ticket and it wouldn’t have affected a single swing state. Third-party voting was down by about 60% versus 2020.

      • @Gerudo@lemm.ee
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        116 days ago

        Maybe not for the popular vote, but in individual districts that were close, it could have. Also, the constant talk for sure influenced some to not bother voting at all due to not having a perfect candidate choice.

        • knightly the Sneptaur
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          116 days ago

          60% less than the last presidential election. The one Biden won.

          Stop blaming third parties for the Democrats’ failure to build a coalition within its own party.

  • @it_a_me@literature.cafe
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    817 days ago
    1. Due to the failings of the electoral college system, my state was almost guarenteed to vote the same way as it has for the last 30 years
    2. I did not strongly agree with either party/candidate
    3. I dispise the current two party system that both major parties are incentivized to maintain
    4. Voting for a third party who is incentivised to push for change via ranked voting and other methods does aid them even if they don’t win

    If my state was likely to be contested, I may have voted differently. Voting for a third party in my case however had a greater impact than fighting or joining the tide of my state

    • @HungryJerboa@lemmy.ca
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      Voting third party is fine. Protest voting is acceptable, though this result still fucking sucks. Strategic voting doesn’t have to be the default choice.

      Anybody that did NOT vote, thinking it would be any sort of protest, is completely idiotic. Self imposed disenfranchisement only forfeits your own ability to say anything about the results.

  • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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    16 days ago

    I was born and raised Jewish, going to Hebrew school in addition to English school from preschool to 14. The horrors of the Holocaust and all it’s trauma was shoved down my throat at far too young of an age to be appropriate. Never again means so much to me, one of my deepest held beliefs. Never again isn’t just Jews but any group hunted down for their ethnicity (not to mention all the other undesirables murdered in the Holocaust, such as the disabled and queer).

    What’s going on in Gaza is a Holocaust. I can’t live with myself and sleep at night if I vote for trump or Harris, because materially for Gaza they are the same. I voted third party. In 2020 I held my nose and voted for biden. I’m disgusted with myself for doing so. He managed to be worse than I could ever imagine. And the liberals were out to fucking brunch for the past four years.

    I will drink liberal tears all damn day long. They can whine and cry and carry on like entitled spoiled rotten children all they want. They were warned that they would lose if they continued to pursue the path they were on and that’s exactly what happened and I have zero remorse for it. And for the record, I’m a visibly queer woman who’s experienced a lot of physical violence in my life for being queer.

      • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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        -1416 days ago

        Hahaha I bet you’re the type to report your latino neighbors who voted for trump to ICE.

        Typical blue MAGA liberal bullshit.

        Go be mad at the democrats instead of voters who refuse to vote for horrible genocidal candidates. They had a whole fucking presidency to pick a successor to biden and they still managed to lose in a landslide it’s so fucking pathetic it would be funny if their political malpractice and brainwashed blue no matter who voters weren’t so fucking dangerous.

          • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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            -416 days ago

            The blue no matter who voters have no morals or ethics and consider this a team sport, and the democrats are their team. They don’t criticize their team or hold them accountable, when they lose, they blame everyone else but themselves for not having higher standards.

            The democrats refused to hold a competitive primary and are now crying and carrying on like spoiled rotten children that they lost. Anyone paying any attention at all could of seen this coming from a mile away. Smug elites who think they know better than the people who’s votes they need to be elected. It’s not rocket science why they lost.

    • @GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
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      316 days ago

      so just to recap here, and I’ll put the facts in bullets.

      • you’re Jewish
      • refused to support literally the only candidate that had majority support
      • installed a LITERAL NAZI as president through sheer incompetence
      • did it all to make people suffer
      • will take great enjoyment out of the suffering

      you sound like a cool dude. I really hope you have a positive experience with the Nazis when they open those concentration camps.

      oh you thought those camps were for them. no, those camps are for us.

      Screenshot_20241107-224958_Firefox

      • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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        -216 days ago

        You know Jews voted en masse for trump because they want to glass Palestine a little faster, right?

        Also, go back to brunch you piece of shit liberal.

        I didn’t vote for a fascist. The democrats ran a PIECE OF SHIT CANDIDATE THAT LOST IN A LANDSLIDE. Go fucking blame the party that REFUSES to hold a primary that they don’t fuck with since 2008.

    • @KombatWombat@lemmy.world
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      416 days ago

      It’s important to remember the Holocaust happened largely because people didn’t do enough to stop it. “First they came for the Communists…” and all that. The Nazis were a fairly minor party for years, but they were able to consolidate power because their opposition wouldn’t rally against them. Coalition requires compromise.

      I am not happy with the Democrats either, but they were the better option. And abstaining from a decision between bad and worse doesn’t help anyone. By allowing Trump to take power again when we might have stopped it, we are all responsible for what comes next.

      • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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        16 days ago

        Another moron who doesn’t know how voting works. Take all the third party votes, give them to Harris in swing states, and she still fucking loses the popular vote and electoral college in a landslide. And most the senate! And likely the house too! GREAT JOB OUT TO BRUNCH LIBERALS!

        HARRIS LOST BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS REFUSED TO RUN A CANDIDATE THAT WENT THROUGH A REAL PRIMARY SINCE 2008!

        • @KombatWombat@lemmy.world
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          115 days ago

          It’s true that Trump had a simple majority of votes, but you can win the electoral college and lose the popular vote; this is typically what happens for Republican victories. Kamala lost MI, PA, and WI by 3% or less. If those had flipped, she would have had her 270. You are right that third party votes wouldn’t have been enough though. The bigger problem was reduced turnout from people not voting at all.

          The fact that Republicans also managed to do so well in Congress to me suggests that the problem for Democrats wasn’t really just their choice for presidential candidate. Voters really care about immigration and inflation right now, and those tend to be stronger for Republicans.

          • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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            215 days ago

            Thankfully trump won both instead of winning the electoral and losing the popular. If it was remotely close or god forbid a repeat of the 2000 election we would be in a hot shooting civil war right now with states threatening secession. So as much as I hate the guy im grateful it wasn’t close as it buys us more peace and more time to organize against his worst impulses.

            The democrats lost the senate and likely the house because they didn’t have a candidate worth voting for for president. I think they would of had much closer margins if they were able to turn voters out but they couldn’t because their unelected anointed nominee was trash.

            • @KombatWombat@lemmy.world
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              29 days ago

              Yeah maybe you’re right about Kamala’s unpopularity being reflected on Democratic congressional candidates. Everyone’s quick to point fingers about why the election results are the way they are (myself included of course), but it’s honestly hard to say which factor had the most impact.

              And I feel the same way about the electoral + popular vote thing. If the Democrats are going to lose anyway, a convincing defeat can at least be a wake up call for change. And this way we don’t have to worry (much) about people claiming it was rigged.

  • @Gointhefridge@lemm.ee
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    1016 days ago

    I think people need to stop asking why didn’t people vote for Harris and as why DID people vote for Trump.

    I think everyone on the whole, is completely underestimating the completely apathetic to politics voter. There is a TREMENDOUS section of the population that would sway from Trump if they felt energized to do so. Kamala was not it. Her policies were not it. Her stance alone on Gaza was not enough (but should not be dismissed).

    People voted for trump because they: are a huge supporter, or they felt they had a fatter wallet during his administration. They feel burned by Biden and Kamala is more of the same. Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.

    Biden shouldn’t have even run, no one wanted it. He even said he’d be a transitional president. Then he backed out and Democrats held no primary. Why would any apathetic voter (especially the ones who were unaware Biden dropped out, check google trends) vote for the guy who made their bank accounts smaller if that’s all they care about?

    I voted for Harris but not without reservations. The democrats do nothing to resonate with the left, and continue to distance themselves from leftist policies, which were popular on ballot measures this election.

    • @mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
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      616 days ago

      I asked my coworkers who are mostly black and Puerto Rican (some of them even converted to Islam; none of them seem like atheists). They all agree that Trump will abolish taxes on overtime and forced child support (they swore that they would still pay for what their children actually need; I guess I gave them a “look”). Honestly, I couldn’t find a real source of Trump even promising these things. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was made up on social media.

      It seems that many non-white urban folks voted for Trump. It seems most people just want a promise of food and shelter if they put in the work (people are working so many hours now). There’s probably a logical reason why neither party has a platform anymore.

    • @inv3r510n@lemmy.world
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      316 days ago

      Asking people why they voted for trump, genuinely, required people to actually talk to people different than them and not get triggered and lose their shit in the process. That’s a tall order these days.

      I’m a lifelong political independent (far left and politically homeless in the US) so it’s a lot easier for me to have conversations with trump voters than it is for blue maga to do so.

      The summary of the frighteningly many trump voters I know in VT is that they hated both candidates but found trump marginally better on the economy (they’re worse off now than they were four years ago) and foreign policy (biden was straight up weak, trump can argue that he’s “anti war” although anyone with half a brain shouldn’t believe him he’ll bomb Iran the first chance he gets). They don’t like the Christian fascism, they don’t like the racism, they don’t like the homo/transphobia (or are ambivalent on the trans part, I’m gay and I can confidently say these people aren’t homophobic) - but ultimately these social issues take the backseat to the fact that inflation is fucking them and we’re on the verge of WW3 and both of these things objectively got worse under biden.

  • @it_depends_man@lemmy.world
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    17 days ago
    1. the world doesn’t owe you at least one morally correct choice. They can also just all be morally bad choices. (hello classical greek drama btw)
    2. morals depend on your point of view what correct behavior is and on the social group you want to be respected and accepted by.
    3. because of that, morals are subjective, made up, and can be whatever anyone wants.

    So xyz being “morally correct” and saying that, is just that person’s point of view, and if you have a different point of view, it’s just a difference of opinion.

  • babybus
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    16 days ago

    Morals and ethics are subjective and based on emotions. That’s why science doesn’t say what’s good or bad. I don’t think you can prove or disprove this argument. People who are strongly focused on Gaza simply reject views that challenge their own.

  • @Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    3116 days ago

    Non voters are just as responsible for the loss of democracy. They are not a single bit better than any MAGA even if they like to claim they are. They chose fascism over democracy

    • @Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world
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      2816 days ago

      What’s worse is they’re now acting like they got one over on the Democratic party like “ha, stupid Democratic party. I bet they won’t learn”. Like what? You played YOURSELVES, you’re the ones who are gonna suffer. You fucked yourselves over just to spite Harris? Wtf??

      • @Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1016 days ago

        Yeah, I have so many discussion with non voters who sre fucking stupif. “But but Gaza!!” completely ignoring how Trump was escalating the conflict when he was in power and how he praised Netanyahu for his handling of it. If the think the dems are bad for Gaza they have not paid attention to republicans.

      • @Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        016 days ago

        It did. It was just a flawed democracy. Now it will be full on fascism. So instead of hope it will get better one day it has gone the worst possible outcome and will not get better until the entire country looks like Berlin '45

        • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          16 days ago

          yawn no it isn’t. I recommend you spend some more time learning american history and less time spouting your nonsense from across the pod.

  • @spujb@lemmy.cafe
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    16 days ago

    Late but here’s my model of the situation. Sort of a WIP and very new but a /gen effortpost, so I welcome thoughts:

    It’s individualism versus collectivism. The collectivist understands intimately the function of working together for the protection and future of the group. There is no doubt in her mind about the practical nature of her actions because she can see them play out in her community. The individualist, by contrast, operates solo; everything for him is about your vote, your candidate. This leads to a divide between the individualist and the material outcomes of his actions. This gap—this absence of practicality, we might call it—leaves a vacuum where symbolism can enter. This becomes a problem not when symbolism is simply encountered by the individualist, but when the symbol becomes the act, when the vote becomes a kind of personal expression, and any thought for collective consequences falls by the wayside.

    “Ordinarily,” if we imagine such a thing exists, these two identities intermix and act in a complex and altogether non-problematic way; I don’t wish to imply that individualism is simply “bad” while collective action is “good.” For example, concepts of individualism are fundamental to advancing human rights to consent and bodily autonomy.

    However, the setting and background of your question is the USA, a country with deep, deep historical ties to white supremacist, capitalist, colonialist, even fascist values, all of which hold the individual as intrinsic over the collective. The result is that hyperindividualism is catastrophically rooted in the heart of U.S. society—even in progressive and leftist spaces!

    So, when you see a pro-Palestinian proclaim abstention or that they voted third party, you are witnessing the complex outcome of genuine compassion intermingled with the values instilled by white supremacy and individualism. And so you hear the phrase, “I just can’t in good conscience vote for XYZ.” To degrees varying between people, the vote loses its material value and becomes nothing more than a symbolic moral statement.

    This doesn’t mean the leftist non-voter is a white supremacist, of course! Rather, it’s that they have been deeply affected by the presence of those values in their cultural context and have not yet had the opportunity or experience with group frameworks to question their assumptions and reassert the significant importance of collectivism.

    So, in conclusion, the unnuanced TLDR is “because America is a racist capitalist hellhole.” The good news I conclude from this, though, is that collectivism can be learned and promoted. Cultural values are definitely not static, and perhaps with education, support, and time, mindsets among leftists can be shifted to better support the whole of the community.

  • @lurklurk@lemmy.world
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    It doesn’t have to make sense for people to convince themselves to do it. It will certainly lead to worse outcomes for gaza

    If your morals disregard the probable outcomes and is more focused on normative rules you could make some arguments but that kind of purity won’t save a single starving child in gaza

    Edit: spelling

    • @lousyd@lemmy.sdf.orgOP
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      216 days ago

      Maybe people believe that it will save a starving child in the future. Like, some future where politicians finally listen to them?

      • @lurklurk@lemmy.world
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        116 days ago

        So it’s the moral argument of killing kids now in the hope of making a point that might or might not affect future politicians?

    • @shadowfax13@lemmy.ml
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      16 days ago

      wtf ? what kind of education you got to think that genocide should be non-issue for voters ?

      • @jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        -116 days ago

        They’re a trash person with no real empathy and failed to realize that arabs had control of 25 electoral votes.

    • n1ckn4m3
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      316 days ago

      The result of 40+ years of republicans destroying the education system, who’d ever have guessed

  • @ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
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    Steelman:

    The US is currently a fascist, imperialist state. It has brutalized the global south, indigenous people, and POCs generally since its founding and will continue to do so unless the status quo is disrupted and changed significantly.

    The Democratic party supports the same militaristic policies and the same neoliberal economic system that the Republicans do. The primary difference between the parties are various social issues that may make life somewhat better or worse for US citizens, but will never address the core problems of fascism, imperialism, and capitalism. Both parties support and protect the status quo. This status quo only benefits the bourgeois class and rich white people and harms literally hundreds of millions of others around the world.

    The Democratic party is the only one of the two major parties that the Left has any degree of leverage over since the Democrats want the Left to vote for them. So, organizing to essentially boycott the Democratic party is a powerful method of protest that could effect real policy change. It is possibly the only effective method of protest left since the US police & surveilance state is cracking down on protests and the Left has no chance protesting violently against the most powerful military the world has ever seen.

    The only way to make that threat matter to the Democratic party is to follow through if the demands aren’t met, even - or especially - if it means a second Trump term.

    The liberal establishment has ignored and abandoned the working class for decades while dangling the carrot of milktoast social democratic reforms that rarely come to pass, but they blame the same people they abandoned for not energetically voting for them. They say it is a moral imperative to vote for them, but they are incapable of bettering the lives of working class people.

    Strawman:

    It would hurt my feelings too much to vote for COPmala Harm-us. Plus, Trump would let Putin annex Ukraine. Also, I’d risk touching grass if I went outside to participate in bourgeois electoralism. Gross.

    Reality:

    You can, and should, do more than one thing. Voting for Kamala is effectively playing defense against outright, full-throated fascism a la Mussolini even if you’d still consider the US fascist - it is clearly worse under Republicans. So vote, play defense, AND organize to raise class consciousness, provide mutual aid, protest when possible, and contribute to socialist causes. Letting Trump win would be a bad move. But, ultimately it is not the Left’s fault that he won. He won the popular vole and the electoral college vote by a large margin - larger than all third party socialist/socialist-adjacent candidates’ votes combined.

    • @AngryRobot@lemmy.world
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      Buddy, you haven’t seen American fascism yet. Part of the problem is that people like you scream “fascist” so much that it’s lost it’s power. A fascist like Trump would have never been able to pull this off if that word hadn’t been trivializec.

      • @Grapho@lemmy.ml
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        615 days ago

        Lemme tell the millions of children that have gone through the migrant camps, separated from their family, some of whom have disappeared, that their jailors aren’t fascists. Let me tell the latino women who have been forcibly neutered without their knowledge or consent that they’re trivializing fascism. Let’s go to those who were detained in Abu Ghraib, if any of them are still alive, that their abduction, rape, and torture by laughing US soldiers doesn’t count, it’s what happens to americans that’s worrying.

        Honestly, this is the fucking smugness of somebody who knows they’re safe as long as they mask, because they’ve been safe as fascists have massively incarcerated and enslaved black people, as they’ve made ghettos of bipoc neighborhoods, as far right terrorists have shot up black churches and gay bars and lynchings are back on the up and up. Because that was trivial, what’s not trivial is if it can happen to them. Fuck dems fr.

          • @Grapho@lemmy.ml
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            The ones who voted for Trump voted because they think they’re not talking about them. The horrible violence will be visited upon whomever is to blame, and they don’t know anyone who’s to blame, so they have nothing to fear.

            Dems do that shit too, what they’re ok with are death squads in Gaza, Nicaragua, Ukraine, because the Americans orchestrating and perpetrating those crimes against humanity would certainly never come back and apply their knowledge at home, where they live, surely. What’s more american than that?