Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture
Lack of intergenerational teaching and connections to help kids mature when growing up
Macho culture existed long before the loneliness. It’s a different kind of macho culture now that is detrimental.
Previous generations had less destructive outlets for machismo than boys of today. Being part of a sports team meant that you had an outlet and a group that you shared common goals with.
I think maybe those words are true, but they are so generic they don’t say anything to me.
I think women has changed due to social media, and that’s causing the men loneliness.
No, male culture has changed far more due to propaganda, etc.
I’m confused. Are women on social media interfering on man-to-man friendships?
Huh??? We’ve been uncommunicative, miserable fucks for much longer than the internet has been around.
Your first hint that this is a naive take is that you’re brushing off a societal issue to a single, external factor.
Men that have been captured by the “alpha” and “masculinity” culture don’t realize that it makes them fucking radioactive. They are literally the reason why women choose the bear. Boys thinking that they have to be hyperbolic, over-aggressive, possessive, manipulative assholes in order to be a “man” are the exact reason that they are lonely.
These men don’t have a god given right to just “have” a girlfriend.
Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
That is glossing over a lot of context, a big one being that club membership is down (that’s a big point of Bowling Alone). I would not be surprised if many clubs relocated or shut down due to low membership, especially after raising membership fees. Or y’know that they were already a middleclass thing, thus canaries.
Pubs are also going to rely on prices, but the most social ones likely are accessible by free public transit or are located in a walkable/mixed-use area (particularly cities designed before+not-bulldozed-for cars).
I don’t think this is about awareness, especially when most people have less friends and less (or no) social engagement.
The entire country is designed to physically isolate people into shiti suburban houses.
Only solution is to quit being poor and live in specific major cities that didn’t get ruined by shiti car lobbies 🤡
I think you have something here. I grew up in the country where people had to actively seek out activities and relationships, including with people they may not otherwise choose to be around. In the city/burbs, I actively chose to travel by foot/transit/someone else’s vehicle, even though it would have been easier to drive everywhere (I mean, sidewalks that just… vanish halfway to a destination? No transit east-west on major arteries? City planners obviously are prioritizing vehicle traffic).
But as a result, I’ve never felt isolated AND have the skills to connect with others who aren’t like me. It’s those skills that seem to have been going away as people hide themselves in their social media bubbles and behind their steering wheels. The same opportunities for socialization are still there, but they take more effort than people are used to making because there’s easier alternatives available than there used to be.
I think you may have missed the point I was making though— clubs and other pastimes didn’t make people less lonely; they only distracted people from their loneliness. Today the same distractions can be found via social media, so instead of all those other activities, people just need a phone.
But the anonymizing nature of social media means people feel more free to discuss their loneliness when they do self-reflect.
Patriarchy harms and isolates men first so that they become the monsters that women fear.
The same way women are expected to look and act a certain way, so is for men, with different criteria.
Not by people per se, but by a sort of cultural subconscious, like a chaos creature from warhammer it exists because people believe in it, not necessarily because they agree with it. Everyone fears it, so most comply.
That’s why it is so important to destroy the social gender binary, the idea that we all neatly fit in well defined labels that apply to our body and mind. It’s just complete bullshit and internalizing it is one of the many ways this system traps us in its oppression
Absolutely agree.
One of the ways we’ve gone wrong so far is that people do need some guidance at least on what is possible and acceptable.
Just saying to young people “Be whatever you want to be” is unhelpful and confusing.
Role models of all kinds and representation matter so people who are figuring these things out as they grow have inspiration, ideas, can see who they are reflected in the world around them so they can put a name to the feeling.
If we can do that without shaming, blaming or excluding then people can find their way without the need of gender binary.
Caveat, not everyone is a suitable role model. Some people are warnings, not examples.
There was a meme the other day about how Aragorn from lotr is the kind of male role model men need. Kind, shows his emotions, strong without being cruel.
Never don’t downvote posts with the word “patriarchy” in them. The right says “DEI hire” the left says “Patriarchy.”
Except if you did just the slightest bit of research you’d know patriarchy is an anthropological and well defined phenomenon not based on prejudice but on research of oppression throughout millennia, while the other is just an excuse to be intolerant.
This kind of false equivalences really show people’s disinterest in going deeper with their judgment. There’s nothing comparable about the two other than widespread use
I don’t know about the others but for me it’s because I’m shy as fuck and kind of insecure.
🫂
Sending hugs. We’ve got your back. 😁
Thank you!
I’m not sure how useful the term “male loneliness” is. There’s a crisis of loneliness in every sex and gender, it’s a side effect of capitalism.
EDIT: spelling error.
Commodification of human interaction, enshitification of social spaces, environmental degradation. Stagnant wage growth vs record profits and increasing cost of living. Yeah that’s the profit motive at work. The unwillingness of most to see it, that’s the propaganda in service of the profit motive.
Ahhh yes the default answer to the cause of all struggles of life: Capitalism
Because it, at the very least, contributes to them.
You’re absolutely delusional if you think the system around which we structure our lives doesn’t affect us.
It may contribute a little, but last time i checked, poor social skills and anxiety weren’t caused by capitalism
Why are you saying this in jest? Late-stage capitalism is a civilization ending event, like an aggressive cancer upon our collective reality. It will consume everything we have to give it and demand more in the pursuit of infinite growth.
Capitalism is responsible for loneliness now??
No, loneliness is a side effect of being human. You think there aren’t lonely people living under socialism? Under communism? Or any other types of governments and socioeconomic systems?
For fuck’s sake. When people blame everything on capitalism, it dilutes the water of any real argument you may eventually have.
Capitalism absolutely contributes to the loneliness crisis. Firstly, it creates a culture of individualism, making it all about “every person for themselves” rather than fostering a sense of community or collective well-being. Stable, long-term jobs that used to provide social connections are being replaced by gig work and precarious employment, leaving people isolated and too burned out to build meaningful relationships outside work.
On top of that, capitalism pushes this idea that happiness comes from products instead of building connections. Social experiences are even commodified now—like dating apps and paid meetups—so relationships feel more like transactions. Cities, designed for profit, don’t help either. You’ve got people crammed into apartments, commuting for hours, all in their individual cars or with their headphones on, and barely interacting with their neighbours. Public spaces that encourage connection are underfunded or replaced with malls and shopping centres.
And then there’s the way capitalism shapes cultural perception of mental health. Capitalism treats loneliness and isolation as individual problems, with solutions like therapy apps and self-help books (ie. profitable industries) rather than addressing the systemic issues that cause them. Even social media, which could foster connection, is driven by algorithms that push engagement over genuine interaction, leaving people feeling more disconnected after hours of scrolling.
At the end of the day, capitalism is profit over people. It’s no surprise that in a world focused on production, consumption, and competition, we’re all feeling so alone. The link between capitalism and alienation is well studied in social science.
Our western culture of individualism is older than capitalism. Much older. It stems from our agricultural and pastoral modes of production. Grains like wheat as well as livestock like sheep, goats, and cattle are highly amenable to work by an individual farmer or shepherd or rancher. Wheat is sown in ploughed fields that have been worked by oxen or horses.
Compare with a different grain like rice which must be transplanted into flooded fields by large groups of people or crops like potatoes or yams which must be planted and dug up individually by mass labour.
The structure of individualism or collectivism is in the roots of our cultures going back thousands of years. So rather than capitalism giving rise to individualism I think the opposite is the case.
Except for the fact that loneliness has existed long before capitalism and will continue to do so after its disbandment 🤦
Capitalism exacerbates a lot of problems. You should try learning how and why rather than just going “nah those problems existed before” (Completely ignoring that they are far worse now than they were before, so fucking obviously something changed)
Lmao of course you’d say they were worse before😂 even though feudalism was probably the most oppressive system we had as a society. Loneliness rates would’ve been through the roof. Sounds like you’re the one who needs to learn a little bit more
I don’t know how to reapond other than to say that just like, isn’t correct
Ok. Enjoy your capitalism-hate circlejerk then👍
You have to admit the “leftist” ideologies tend to be about working together and supporting each other, and the “right wing” ideologies about encouraging individual accomplishments, though?
You can only think that way if you stop at the most superifical point of discussion and perception.
One way capitalism increases loneliness is with the job economy. We work too much, to blindly increase “profits” for someone who doesn’t care about us. We are restless and tired when we get home, going out costs too much (because of the same corporations pushing the economy and legislation that makes life always the more expensive) so we don’t go out the same.
Obviously capitalism is but one of the factors of modern loneliness, but it is heavily intertwined with a political will of weakening our resolve and hope and companionship.
When things go a certain way, you need only follow who benefits the most from it, and you will almost surely find the cause for that ill
Rofl! Yeah… I’m done.
Without a single coherent thought expressed!
And ad hominem is?
Used too much brain for a day?
Not at all! I am just able to recognize a futile argument against ignorance before it happens. And as a rule, I don’t exercise futility. It’s a thing that comes with age.
I explained my point, you ignored it as an “excersize in futility”, you’re just lazy and don’t want to actually read beyond the first lines
You’re absolutely right that I ignored it. Because it’s an absurd take and therefore I dismissed it.
I’ve said it already- but I guess it did’t sink in:
Loneliness is a part of being human and exists within ALL cultures, races, governments, wealth brackets, employment statuses, genders, and ages.
End of story.
Society died but people kept having children anyway.
Maybe lay off the Internet for a while, mate
For decades it has been ingrained in men that they are to be held to a very specific standard. Men don’t cry, men are strong, men have to take care of everyone else, stop your whining, I’ll give you something to cry about, be the alpha male, that’s “gay”, strength, weakness, and so on.
My father, and grandfather, both grew up with a code of silence. Feelings weren’t talked about, but relayed through their wives; except anger. That was given directly through corporal punishment (hand or belt).
I was always “emotional” growing up. I cried “like a baby” over “nothing”. No one ever came to check on me, or console me, during any of my “fits”. In fact, there were times I was ridiculed for it (sometimes by family members).
When I was 19 my grandmother died. I was really close with her; she was the only one who ever came to my aid and defended me. It tore me up so bad I could barely talk without breaking down. I was told multiple times that I shouldn’t be so upset, and that I was overreacting (by my family). Everything came to a head when all at once my cousins, aunts, uncles, and even brother yelled at me because I was being selfish and unreasonable, and insensitive to my grandfather because “he just lost his wife”.
Oh, and apologies are for “pussies”.
Anyway, it’s not really about me. I wanted to paint a picture for you as to why I’m lonely. Do with that what you will.
The atomization of society. The process of a society breaking down into smaller, isolated units, where individuals are self-interested and self-sufficient. It can lead to a feeling of being alone even when surrounded by people.
I was thinking about it this morning.
Look at Beatle-mania or Spice Girl-mania.
Back in the day, 100 million people were aware of one big thing and it brought them together.
Today with the internet, you’ve got a million different ‘big things’ each with 100 fans.
We still have mass phenomenons and bringing 100 people together is plenty. What’s probably missing is local community.
Serious question.
What’s the last thing in entertainment that you think was known to everyone in the USA? I’m not talking about Taylor Swift dating a football player. I mean a brand new act coming out and all kinds of people excited.
I can’t think of anything.
Btw, It’s a lot more pronounced here on the internet. Since it’s a filter bubble. If you dive into the real world, you’ll find a lot of males also have healthy lives, a lot of hobbies, they’re going out with friends, playing football once a week etc. I mean it’s certainly there, and a big issue in society. All I want to say is, don’t just look at some social media and draw conclusions from that. The perspective here is heavily skewed and making it look more desperate than it is.
I think there is a lot of wisdom here. I’m old, many of my meaningful relationships were formed before three was an internet. Now I use online tools to stay in touch with friends who are friends I have interacted with face-to-face, not people know solely online.
That’s not to say meaningful relationships cannot be owned online. I have met a number of people IRL who I originally met playing Football Manager or on XBox Live.
But online relationships are not a substitute for real face-to-face interactions.
I tell people that making friends needs to be intentional. It takes work and commitment.
I’ve thought about this a lot myself. I’m 12-15 friends/acquaintances down due to them deciding to step out of life in their twenties or thirties. On paper none of them seemed to be in too bad a way and yet…
There’s obviously the problem that having and discussing emotions is for girls and gays only (/s), but there must be more to it than that.
I think there’s an expectation (where I live) that men should be strong and stoic at all times - but, honestly, many of us are fragile little flowers, some of the time, but it’s seen (erroneously) as weakness.
In my experience most men are happy to talk about: “big screen tv’s, blunts, 40’s and bitches” to NSFW quote
but they can’t open up about emotions and feelings.
Sorry for your loss.
Yes, I think of emotional talk as “showing weakness”, because people around me gladly lash out at the exposed surface. Men and women do that, but it hurts more from women. They seem to be better at dealing emotional damage, or I’m just more receptive when it comes from them.
Also, talk about feelings needs to be handled, and can be handled very poorly. It also can seem demanding. “When I have my plate full of my own stuff I don’t want to deal with yours”, or similar mindsets when the tools to properly handle such a situation were just never acquired.
On the other hand talk about sportsball is a way to entertain oneself while giving the lizardbrain time to adapt to the people around it.
I think you’re correct that (some / many) people see the tiniest chink in your armour and go for the juggler (jugular vein - clown 🤡 joke) to compound your misery to make themselves feel/look “strong”.
And, yes, in abusive relationships I believe a husband is more likely to hurt and damage his wife with his fists whereas a wife would be more likely to hurt and damage her husband with words - generally speaking. It’s tragic either way…
I think you’re correct that (some / many) people see the tiniest chink in your armour and go for the juggler (jugular vein - clown 🤡 joke) to compound your misery to make themselves feel/look “strong”.
I think most do it to be right. To win an argument or “prove” one is right.
And, yes, in abusive relationships I believe a husband is more likely to hurt and damage his wife with his fists whereas a wife would be more likely to hurt and damage her husband with words - generally speaking. It’s tragic either way…
I’ve seen more men being abusive in a nonviolent way than women. (Also in a violent way, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.) Women tend to be almost abusive, if that makes sense. Not being tangible for a statistic or something, but carving their way to their personal button they can push whenever they feel like it to make their spouse emotional in a way they can use. Can be something like “planned incompetence”, a repeated phrase or problem, or anything really.
Men tend to be openly hostile more often, while women tend to cover their intentions more. Not saying this is exclusive to gender, but saying it’s a tendency.
The topic is multifacedted and I cant pretend to understand it fully, but to speak of some aspects as I understand them
There is a large gap between societal and cultural expectations of men, and the financial and realities for everone at the moment.
One part of societal expectations of men is that they expected to be independent, capable of getting and holding a job that pays well enough to buy a car, own a house, etc. The current reality is that many men are in debt after a university degree, have a hard time finding a job because 99% of applications get rejected outright, and get paid significantly less accounting for inflation and costs compared to their predecessors. It is impossible for the average person to afford a house on the typical wages these days without already having a significant other or by pooling resources. This has led to a large number of people who live at home and have less money to spend on things like going out.
I say this as someone who is fairly well off given my job and field, I get paid ~2x what some of my friends do and I could not afford a house within a 2hr drive of my workplace. I live at home with my parents and it fucking sucks.
Another aspect of bad cultural expectations is that men are expected to be cold unfeeling lone wolf types, and the idea that any sort of male bonding is “gay” which has caused people to spend less time doing things with friends. Men end up with smaller social circles and with less friends. With increasing costs and long working hours, they end up with little time to actually hang out together.
An additional aspect of the failure of cultural expectations to adjust the need to place blame. Blame has fallen on the individual man for being, among other things, lazy good for nothings, who are weak, ugly, etc.
If we look at the US, they have been abandoned by the left, both by the democrats (e.g. economy is fine, must be your fault), by the feminists (told to be vulnerable but called weak for being vulnerable, shunned at every instance because “sounds like a you problem” and “figure it out yourself”) and by their own parents who had an easier time.
This is part of why the manosphere became so popular. Men have been told for so long that they were the problem, many of them still just boys, whereas right wing pundits like jordan peterson, andrew tate, joe rogan, etc gave them targets to redirect blame. An excuse for “actually, its not my fault I cant find a date, its the woman’s fault,” etc. Note that this is not my personal belief. It also gives them a sense of community and people talk to that actually listen and make them feel heard and justified in their struggles.
The blame game has caused us to ignore several important systematic factors. The rise of individualism, stagnant wages relative to inflation and costs, and growing wealth inequality, as well as the erosion of community and mens safety nets are all major factors which have decreased mens mental health and increased male loneliness.
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
basically, a piece of toxic masculinity….
men are only allowed to display emotions of anger or mild happiness.
i think this is a big reason why sports are so popular… it’s more about camaraderie than anything else.
also why they like to get drunk and say “i love you man” and all that mushy stuff.in a nutshell: because they’re taught to be that way.
Ignore all that and be yourself, if you’re around people that treat you that poorly you should find yourself new friends
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I used to struggle with this game of trying to be perceived the way I am “supposed to”. It’s when I gave up on that game that likeminded people just kinda noticed in everyday interactions.
I’ve made a lot of friends since then, and I’ve got a lot less to worry about
Faulty and even dangerous use of the phrase “supposed to.” It implies a pressure to conform to some standard of etiquette or game rule. “You’re supposed to keep your elbows off the table.” “You’re supposed to wait for the umpire to say ‘play ball’ before you pitch.”
If I were teaching a shop class, and I were to hear one of my students say “you’re supposed to use a push stick when doing thin rips on a table saw,” I would say corrective action is necessary. While yes, using a push stick while performing thin rips is good practice, use of the phrase “supposed to” implies an attitude that it is the shop teacher’s pet peeve, and that the student will be free of that pointless ritual once out on the job.
You use a push stick because a table saw is a device designed to tear the bodies of living things apart, and rapidly. If you touch the blade, your body will be torn apart, and rapidly. While performing a thin rip with your bare hands, your hands will pass very close to the blade, anything goes wrong, a kickback or similar calamity will hurt you in ways a doctor can’t fix. Push sticks are PPE, we use them so we don’t get injured, not because “it’s the rules.”
“supposed to” as in how some people and social groups except and push particular behaviours from certain individuals. As in women are “supposed to” be in the kitchen.
it’s to present the stupid way some social groups and cultures work
Yeah we don’t do that anymore. We don’t “supposed to.”
Some people have learned better, and not all cultures are as bad with this. But unfortunately, the majority of people is still stuck with the social pressure to be or behave in certain ways that are simply not benefitting anyone
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
I don’t care if “alpaha” males think I am a soyboy, but you ain’t keeping a partner if she got the “ick”
And most women get the ick over random shit including something that they might perceive as unregulated emotions.
i agree… i just don’t think that’s an inherent thing in women and it’s a symptom of a sick society…
Good point, it could very well be. Sadly, it’s really hard to tell why, and which women will respond with it. I’ve never heard a woman alluding to it irl, but I have seen them respond in both ways.
The ick is huge. The only woman most men can open up to without playing russian roulette is their mother (assuming a healthy relationship).
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
Edit: a little plug for https://lemmy.ca/c/mensliberation
Could not agree more feminism is just human rights by another name and human rights is not achieved by anyone till every gender , race , sexual orientation, religion or lack of, ability or disability are equal.
You dont have to agree even. That’s just the definition of feminism.
That word is egalitarianism. Ftfy.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/egalitarianism
Feminism is egalitarianism just as Black Lives Matter is egalitarianism.
Both recognize disparities for a specific marginalized group, and work to establish egalitarianism.
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Male loneliness is likely partially due to the same reason we are all here; this online outlet for social endorphins is why you were not building up a deficit over the last week and felt the motivation to finally call that person you were thinking about this whole time. That person was a passing thought, and the endorphins hit you might have received is ultimately less than you got from the austere but consistent dose you get from social engagement online.
The only problem is that you are not creating a meaningful personal social network in real life. When you really need such a network in practice, you face the reality of no one to turn to, or less depth and meaning to such connections. Real people are also complex and you must face the reality that no one fits your echo chamber bubble like a place like this. If you act like a down vote or stupid hot take comes across here to people in the real world… you find yourself back here with less options in the future.
People online can be fun and can’t hurt you
Don’t get disabled and have a place like this as your only outlet to connect with other humans. Anonymous and mob like negativity, especially from misunderstandings, can be hurtful when sharing some part of yourself or the only time you’ve said anything to anyone in a day or more from within a prison of loneliness you cannot escape.
Ah, I guess I’ll need to tell my teenage friend who never made it to adulthood after feeling trapped and ruined when an older man started an online relationship that isolated her from her family to… fucking grow a pair or something?
Healthy mature people can exist online in a positive manner. Not everyone is an adult and not every adult is mature. The internet can be a dangerous place and it’s unhelpful to try and dismiss that.
Valid. Fair point.
This is so true. We are living in the novel “Brave New World”
Male loneliness is as much a symptom of the “suck it up” toxic masculinity that pervades your comment as it is the content of your comment.
Men are taught to be stoic, to rely only on themselves, to suck it up and get on with it, and for some, they’re trying desperately to conform to something that seems frighteningly easy for others. They’re expending all their energy on that unnatural - for them - attempt to conform rather than being able to simply exist as they might otherwise be.
Your instinct might be to attack me for pointing this out. That’s toxicity at play. Look at yourself.
But I haven’t made my main point yet. It’s this same toxicity and trying to “be a man” that turns men into the monsters that women fear, and so it becomes a vicious cycle of negativity breeding loneliness and on and on.
My advice would be “Do better. And if you can’t do better, do your best. And whatever you do, minimise harm.”
I choose to abstract and never attack anyone, while you insult, and make assumptions about my disposition going as far as assigning them an ideology and framework that seems repugnant and baseless to me. I see and feel lots of projection and bias, but if causing a disabled person in social isolation harm makes you feel better, I’m glad you had a better day. The comments seem so randomly unrelated it feels like you are possibly a misinformation agent of some sort.
I’m genuinely confused how my advice to minimise harm has itself caused harm. And sometimes, someone’s “best” isn’t much at all. That’d be me most days.
I should probably have put a conditional on “Look at yourself” to tie it in with the “might” in the lead sentence, though, that’s on me.
Yeah I agree that response was uncalled-for.
Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it’s labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there’s no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
When you’re emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you’re not motivated to be around them since they won’t fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you’re also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you’re only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.
When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it’s easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you’re even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.
Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.
But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
Except for children with autism, I’d say. My mom couldn’t get me to be girly or feminine while I was growing up, I just did what made sense, sometimes that was a girly or feminine thing and other times not.
Maybe the patriarchy is an allistic people problem lol.
