I’ve been seeing a lot of anti-voting sentiment going around. Can’t believe I have to say this, but you need to vote. Not only is there more to the election than just the president. (State policy, Senate, house), but not voting is not an act of protest. C’mon guys

  • tills13@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    11 months ago

    And I don’t think I should have to remind y’all that while neither candidate has a good outlook on Palestine… at least one won’t end democracy in the US.

      • QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        11 months ago

        Create a pledge to vote for a leftist candidate. If it surpasses ~85 million signatures, everyone who signed it will vote for the leftist candidate. Otherwise, they will all vote for Biden, since a minimum of 85 million votes are required to guarantee an election win.

        I’d sign that shit, and I bet just about every leftist around here would, too. There’s literally no downside.

        It is immensely difficult to get 85 people to agree to do something—never mind 85 million—but still not impossible. You almost definitely won’t be able to get 85 million signatures, but you’re more than welcome to try. If you don’t succeed, however, I encourage you to consider the realm of possibility when filling out your ballot. Voting for a third-party candidate and voting for Mickey Mouse—or a dead guy, or Vermin Supreme, or yourself—are equally irrelevant if the third-party candidate does not stand a chance of winning.

  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    11 months ago

    First of all, I will absolutely be voting in the general, for whoever has the backing of the Democrat party, whether that be Biden or someone else if something unforseen happens. However, I think it’s important to recognize a few key key matters.

    1. Not voting is an act of protest, but it is a largely ineffective form of protest. Protesting is the way the people voice their concerns, and deliberately not voting is in fact a way of voicing concern. However, this is an emotional, unobjective form.

    2. Biden, and the overall US war machine, is complicit in genocide. This fact should not be denied for the sake of an election. Simply voting third party is unobjective, this results in the outward fascists taking power, but at the same time, toeing the line results in further entrenchment of liberalism.

    How can we resolve the former 2 statements? Simple. Protest loud, as much as you can, during the primaries. Force Biden’s hand.

    Just as we can hold people responsible if they vote third party during the general, or not voting, we can also hold Biden accountable. This isn’t simply a matter like Single Payer Healthcare, which would take tremendous effort with the support of congress to pass, this is something in his hands.

    I’ll reiterate: if your goal is to help the Palestinian people, there is only one correct path: protest as much as you can, as early as you can, until Biden caves and ceases the genocide. If you do not protest Biden now, while we still have the chance to change his course, then we risk protests lasting even longer and hurting his chances during the General, backfiring.

    The Condition for Victory is a swift, loud, uncontestable wake-up call for Biden, followed by rallied support once genuine, positive change is shown to happen. Biden has already started to feel the pressure, and has begun sending some petty aid. Biden cannot risk losing the general, and we cannot risk Biden losing the general either, nor can we stand by and watch Biden support genocide.

    Vote in the Primary against Biden, and vote in the General for Biden.

    • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Many people in Poland half a year ago felt similarly about ousting the ruling national conservatives as well during the last election with historically high turnout. 6 months in and the new government proved to be just as much of a reactionary enemy of the people as that of PiS. They almost fired at the protesting farmers recently

      Nothing has changed in terms of abortion laws either, which still remain one of the most draconic in Europe. Recently a young Belarusian woman was murdered in downtown Warsaw in broad daylight.The only response of the “progressive” government? MORE FUNDING TO THE COPS, just roughly a year after another woman was severely traumatized and humiliated by the police just because she sought medical attention after taking an abortion pill. The so-called “lefts” don’t even have enough respect for the female/AFAB voters to leave the government – why would they, after all they WILL employ the media to do this sort of fearmongering in 4 years to save their comfy positions and call it a day.

      All this in a (de facto) multi-party system with relatively weak role of the president, so what sort of mental gymnastics must that be in the US where the Democrats were not able to do jackshit about Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade and there was and is not even a major party to hold them accountable for that, only the people capable of overthrowing their broken system.

      And it’s like that anywhere in the world in this rotten system – best those professional politicians screaming about fascism and creeping dictatorship can offer us is just “fascism with a human face”. Their policies fuel the openly reactionary side precisely because they are just as morally bankrupt, worthless and entrenched.

      In case of the Polish parliamentary left, some of them quite likely won’t leave the government because they fear the other 2, bigger parties will seek to form one with the ultra-right Konfederacja. And if that’s the case, then it speaks volumes about the condition of reformists who more and more haven’t been able to form a government that offers anything of value to the broad working masses ever since the Soviet Union dissolved and they felt confident that now it’s time to focus mostly on identity politics and economically become more and more in line with the neolibs, because without KGB backing, the Stalinized, bureaucratic communist parties who nonetheless weren’t really a revolutionary threat lost relevance almost universally.

      But then once capitalism’s honeymoon caused by the opening up of new markets in the 90s was over and Marx was once again proven right by crisis after crisis, those foolish lackeys of the ruling class so certain about the end of history didn’t see the writing on the wall and now are running like headless chickens wondering why after three decades of failing their traditional voter base they still hardly manage to stay in power just merely because some people know that the ultra-right is no alternative – and erroneously, but sometimes at least with some cynicism – assume that the reformists will take any notes and change their ways, much like hoping a narcissistic, abusive partner would change their ways – to no avail.

        • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          11 months ago

          They use Poland as an example of why voting is bad but ignore Tusk being one of the loudest European voices in backing Ukraine. Sounds convenient for a different major world power tp argue against that…

          Bc theyre sooo totally gonna be able to get the proles to their side to overthrow their shackles instead -_____-

  • survivalmachine@beehaw.org
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    11 months ago

    I stand with Palestine, and I’ll be voting in the US. Yes, I’m voting for Biden as the lesser of two evils, but I’m also voting for a whole lot of other really good people who are going up against some truly evil people. I’ve got people attacking my schools and libraries at the local level. Not voting to spite Biden will hurt my town a whole lot more than it would hurt Biden.

    • averyminya@beehaw.org
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      11 months ago

      That’s what I don’t understand from the don’t vote crowd.

      Okay, nobody left leaning voted. Now what?

      • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        I’d argue it’s not ultra-leftism if both options are reactionary. On the contrary, when going through such a turbulent period, to call yourself a socialist/Marxist and yet tail any anti-worker Democratic crisis cabinet is to compromise yourself just like the Mensheviks did for 8 months in 1917 when they happily took their warm seats and then didn’t do shit to improve the desperate position of the Russian workers and denounce the Russian imperialism.

        So what to do instead of voting? Join the revolutionary communists to end the endless cycle of disappointment and picking lesser evil in the system that gives no real agency to 99% of the society.

        • cobra89@beehaw.org
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          11 months ago

          While I agree with communism in theory, some of the language on the page regarding revolution is problematic IMO and is not going to gain the party any favors.

          Also some of the stuff they have listed on the site is pretty hilarious:

          The German Revolutions in 1918 and 1923, and the British General Strike in 1926, show us that even in the economic powerhouses of capitalism, the contradictions of capitalism cannot be fundamentally overcome. In fact, in 1968, the largest revolutionary general strike in history shook France. This was a country that had been lauded for its high living standards, and it occurred during a period of economic upswing!

          Literally every example they list of “the contradictions of capitalism cannot be fundamentally overcome” is an example of a country that is still capitalist lol. (Maybe because the real life examples of communism objectively haven’t turned out that great.) So they’ve continued to overcome them. And sure you can argue a country like France has a lot of socialist programs and legislation but it’s certainly still a capitalist country.

    • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      0
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      11 months ago

      lol if you want to defend your community, join SRA instead of relying on a state that will not back down when tried, just like the French bourgeoisie used an enemy army to suppress an uprising by the French workers 150 years ago.

        • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          11 months ago

          yet the black panthers actually taught us the value and the power of the oppressed being able to defend themselves. imagine what if they were still around for the BLM movement if it wasn’t for cointelpro.

  • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    0
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    11 months ago

    if voting changed shit it would have been made illegal. don’t legitimize slavery by acts of expressing gratitude for being able to pick your masters.

      • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        in this day and age, there is no progressive wing of the bourgeoisie. Revolutionary communists fight for a workers’ government and do not give any support to any capitalist party or politician. (…) However, mass dissatisfaction with the Democrats does not mean a majority of Americans are right-wing reactionaries. On the contrary, most people merely want stability, good jobs and wages, and a safe and healthy place to raise a family. But this simply isn’t possible for everyone under capitalism. The exploitation of wage-labor by capital and the relentless drive for profits precludes this. As an arch-capitalist himself, Trump can’t square the circle either, and he is merely filling the political vacuum in a temporary and distorted way. If reelected, those workers attracted by his poisonous bravado will eventually realize that no American president can magically wave their problems away.

        https://socialistrevolution.org/election-2024-why-genocide-joe-and-trumps-system-has-to-go/

        Evil is evil and lesser evilism is a disgusting idea.

        And when it comes to Trump, just as Hegel put it, historical necessity is often expressed through accident. Donald Trump is a giant, catastrophic accident for the capitalist class.

    • mulcahey@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      11 months ago

      Not sure how to tell you this, but the Right has spent years and millions of dollars trying to make voting illegal for its opponents.

      So… I guess it does change shit, by your definition.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/03/us/politics/trump-voter-rolls.html

      https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/officials-investigating-why-126000-voters-were-purged-from-ny-rolls

      https://www.democracydocket.com/analysis/in-seven-states-removing-voters-from-the-rolls-just-got-easier/

      • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        The people of USA succesfully beat two tyrannical systems in 18th and 19th century so why wouldn’t they now if the current state of things deteriorates in that direction. And so did the Russians who have lived under the tsarist tyranny. Or the people oppressed by the colonial regimes who have not attained their independence as a gesture of good will. Or Cubans overthrowing Batista. Or Chileans ousting Pinochet. Or South Africans overthrowing the apartheid.

        All of that required militancy. Polite pleas are not a language tyrants understand. But, by extension, blind faith in electoralism has failed when the KPD failed to respond with proper militancy to the Reichstag fire decree in 1933. The militancy must be proactive. One should not be deluded that a “progressive” government will welcome with open arms any advanced, massive expression of social anger any more than a reactionary one would. See France where it is basic street knowledge to wear at least a solid fucking helmet with plexiglass visor to any protest if you don’t want to say, lose an eye under the oh-so-benevolvent rule of the liberal Macron.

        Aaron Bushnell had a gun pointed at him as he died.

        • mulcahey@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          11 months ago

          Yes, that’s all true. But that’s a good argument for “You shouldn’t only vote,” not “You shouldn’t vote.” See the difference?

          If the only action we take is voting, then the tyrants who aren’t constrained by law will win. If the only action we take is direct action, then the tyrants win as soon as they outgun us. If we use voting to advance things in civil society inside the lines and direct action to keep the tyrants playing inside the lines, we win.

      • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        11 months ago

        stagnant wages, no real influence on the politics because the Overton’s window is so narrow and all major parties filled with out of touch millionaires and also just because the political system does not really benefit a common person in a meaningful way, the cost of living and debt crisis, needing to join the military for basic public services, creeping corporate censorship and oligopolization creating a generation of dependent, depressed people with growing self-censorship instinct?

        • Moss@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          11 months ago

          Ok but none of this is slavery. I wouldn’t even call it indentured servitude. There’s a million miles between things sucking and being literally enslaved

      • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        Also I hope the Russian government is overthrown by it’s people and that the right to the self determination of the myriad of ethnic groups of Russia is actually honored instead of them being used as a cannon fodder to oppress another nation.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          11 months ago

          I live in Russia. First, that won’t happen soon, it’s a bad situation with apathy, fragmentation and decay. Second, that myriad of ethnic groups is by geographic distribution mostly unable to secede as states with clearly defined borders. Third, where they can (say, North Caucasus), they depend on central financing to not be terribly poor (and they are still very poor).

          • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            edit-2
            11 months ago

            isn’t Tuva an exception in this case due to it’s isolation? Also a question of leadership, how relevant was Boris Kagarlitsky, actually?

            • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              11 months ago

              Not of the third point.

              Also a question of leadership, how relevant was Boris Kagarlitsky, actually?

              So relevant that I’ve heard about him a few times, but never paid attention.

      • anti-idpol action@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        but election rigging in post-Soviet Russia was actually started by the CIA to not let the communists get back to power in 1996 elections. Which is actually yet another proof that what is needed in any country really is a revolution and actual thorough democratization of every aspect of social and economic life possible, instead of neo-aristocratic electoralism. And that to that goal, a party able to lead a way towards it is needed (instead of trying to work within those that actually just prop up the system and will actively fight back when that is challenged (look up SJ Voralberg case in Austria as the most recent example, or even more glaringly, CPRF purging anti-war faction or the Blairite hostile takeover in Labour a couple years ago)), which was sadly lacking in Russia in the 90s as well as today.

        • QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          11 months ago

          what is needed in any country really is a revolution and actual thorough democratization of every aspect of social and economic life possible

          Good luck accomplishing any of that while under a dictatorship :)

          • force@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            11 months ago

            the iranians revolted… into another dictatorship…

            and the french revolution ended swell! wait

            what about the cuban revolution? oh god damn it

            lol i’m just kidding, i can think of a few. the italian civil war and the libyan civil war, and technically the russian revolution and german revolution but i guess it helps when the government you’re fighting against is getting brutally beaten in a war against other countries. but i can’t say all of those ended in an extremely democratic system