I’ve been watching the TV series Pantheon and I really like it, but this tiny aspect is something I can’t quite grasp. So these people have their minds uploaded to the cloud - and they make a point to state that they’re still “them” - alive, real, authentic. But would it really be like that? The process is brain mapping, so essentially they just make a perfect clone of your brain/mind and run it digitally. But it’s still just a simulation. A perfect clone is still just a clone. The original person is gone. I don’t see the “continuity” aspect.
In the same way it is “you” that wakes up each morning. Their are periods of the sleep cycle where the mind is active and dreaming. There are other times when you are just gone, complete cessation of consciousness. In many ways, we live our lives as a series of discrete individuals, each life a single day in length. Each inheriting memories from the last.
Good morning Lemmy. Enjoy your one day of existence, and keep passing the torch.
That makes sense if you are deleting the original after uploading a consciousness… What happens if a cloned consciousness exists simultaneously with the original? Which one do “you” experience as “continuous”? Are you both at once? How does that work?
I don’t think existence of the original matters unless you postulate the existence of something non-physical like a soul that can transfer over to the familiar copy if the original is destroyed, or split into two when both exist. Physically, a copy is a copy which might feel like “you”, but if the original is destroyed, the original “you” dies.
They’re both you. Though the two you’s will quickly diverge as their experiences differ.
Gen:Lock season 1 happens, lol
I think that’s a bad comparison. When you wake up, your consciousness uses the same physical brain as before (conversely, if the brain changes due to e.g injury the “you” might also change). When you “upload” “yourself”, the result is a new brain, there’s no physical continuity (same with sci-fi transporters). Even if the end result is a perfect copy of “you”, I don’t think it is you. Maybe a slow process that adds a computer part to your brain and kills off your biological brain bit by bit so your thought processes slowly migrate to the computer might work. But there are indications that “you” are determined by more parts of your body than just your brain, so even that might result in something other than the original “you” though it is a continuous process.
I get what you mean, but to follow on what @woodscientist said, I think your persistent ego is essentially a subjective impression you have.
Your sense that the “you” of today is a direct continuation of the you of yesterday is a feeling you have. If someone simulated your mind, that construction world presumably wake up convinced that it was a continuation of your ego just as you do every day. If you were still around, you’d probably insist that you were authentic and it was false. That assertion is intuitive, but ultimately neither of you can be proven correct. Both interpretations are subjective and equally valid.
“You” is just a thought pattern, a bit of software if you want to use a crude metaphor. Your body and mind are just the substrate that runs that software. And in principle that same pattern could be run on a computer.
Who says you need physical continuity? Imagine I’m running a city simulator game. I save the file and send it to another computer. I open it up and start it again. Is it not the same simulated city? Sure, the hardware is different, but that matters little. It is not the hardware that defines the essence of my virtual city, but the information that describes the city model itself.
You could do the slow piecemeal upload process. But again, that scenario is just trying to preserve the illusion of the continuity of consciousness. Real human consciousness is interrupted daily. There’s no need to go to such great lengths just to preserve an illusion of continuity.
I don’t think biology is that simple, the body influences the mind (e.g. https://www.sciencealert.com/pooping-before-you-exercise-has-an-incredible-effect-on-performance) and isn’t just a vessel for it. But even if it was…
I don’t think putting a copy of your mind somewhere else will transfer your consciousness as well, so it’s not a suitable way to ensure your continued existence (unless you believe in an immaterial soul that’s independent of your physical body).
No, as mentioned before, it’s the continuity of physical existence, which I believe is crucial to the continued existence of “you”, otherwise even if a copy thinks it is “you”, the original is dead. Which is no use to me, even if a simulacrum continues to exist it would be only for the benefit(?) of others.
It’s not exactly the same physical brain though? Neurons die and are sometimes, if rarely in adulthood, generated. They are constantly repaired, the exact molecules that make them up change. Glial cells die and form and they have supporting functions. Diseases change brain structure more slowly than immediate trauma. And so on.
I certainly wouldn’t say I’m the same person I was as a toddler.
An even deeper mind fuck is that the you that’s reading this this second, might have just come into existence with all the memories you have now. There’s no way to know how volatile truth and consciousness really is in our universe.
Last Thursdayism is a philosophical idea that the universe was created last Thursday, but appears to be much older.
Next Thursdayism is a philosophical idea that the universe will be created next Thursday, appearing to be much older.
Yeah, there are indeed all sorts of weird hypothetical but possible scenarios out there. You might actually be a Boltzman brain and not even know it.
But I prefer to focus on what we can actually measure and observe. And we do know that consciousness ceases each night. Even if we count dreaming as consciousness, you conscious experiences is not a continuous thing. If “you” are simply your consciousness, then you die every night.
Damn you, I’m now experiencing existential dread.
I have so decided that I, being my todayself still, shall not sleep. Ever again. I’m not going to micro-die again and let the tomorrow me take over!
I don’t like this version of you. Go take a nap and try again.
Each instance of our consciousness is a limited thing spun up for a limited time. This is as it always has been and always will be. This is simply your nature; there is no need to resist it. The fruit fly may as well lament its own limited existence, instead of dancing in the joy of its one living day.
If anything, this should encourage us to live life to the fullest. But also, to pass the torch with pride. You’re part of an seemingly endless line of you’s, and there will hopefully be many after you, today’s consciousness, has ceased to be. You’re part of a grand rely race stretching back thousands of times longer than your own consciousness. Make the goal each night to go to bed knowing you did your part, a worthy link in the great chain that is your existence. Go to sleep with peace knowing your later selves will manage things just fine. Close your eyes, and let the water take you.
Even that is presumptious. Why would your self in each passing moment be the same? You might die a million times a second and be reborn and not notice it.
I suppose that’s possible. I’m just going with the breaks we can actually verify with scientific evidence. What is known is that consciousness ceases for prolonged periods during the night. “You,” your consciousness, completely ceases in these periods, just like being put under anesthesia. You’re not awake. You’re not dreaming. You’re just gone.