“Technically, the United States didn’t get bad, it’s always been bad! It only got worse!” isn’t the flex a lot of leftists think it is.
What’s wrong with the message “We should be doing better, not worse”?
Seems preferable to the “hurt people who also want the things I have” that seems the core of conservatism.
What’s wrong with it is it’s normalizing Donald Trump. Like, actually pointing at Trump and saying “this is normal.” US democracy is on life support, and calling this business-as-usual is like telling people there’s nothing to see here while he yanks and tugs on the plug.
I’m not sure I understand.
Saying “We can do better than Trump/Fascism/Corruption/Kleptocracy” seems far from normalising the current state?
Saying we can do better than trump/fascism is not what the OP is implying. The op is implying what were are doing now is the same as what we have done before. We can acknowledge that we’ve done bad before, but now it’s for sure way worse. I agree with Bernie that now is way worse than before
Left doesn’t push this, right (or fake left ML) pushes this to same-sides left.
What has this to do with “lefties”?
A dictatorship and dismantling everything inside the country and destroying relationships with allies can’t be good either wayOr do I miss something?
Hm. I think we can agree that “flexing” and “ooooh, we told you so” and “look at our superior moral high ground, isn’t it moral and amazing” isn’t exactly material to make friends in a political debate.
The problem is to formulate a political common ground position that so many people can agree on, that it’s trivial to support it. And it should be very clear that “they nazi, don’t pay attention to our goals btw” isn’t good enough. Even if it’s bernie saying it.
The problem with formulating that position is also, that it’s hard to even bring the attention and time investment that is required for listening to people or to read an argument, if you don’t trust the person making the argument. So a “hold on, we’re going to get to the good point in 20 minutes” isn’t good enough either.
Starting with something is obviously wrong like “we have always been the good guys” will destroy what little benefit of the doubt people may bring to the table. And it’s not material to build that common ground.
So, try to read the “we told you so” not as a petty attempt to rub something in, but as a “this situation being wrong has been our position from the start, let’s get to the real argument, please”.
And that actual real argument can’t be an appeal to the long, honorable, just and democratic history and patriotism, because that kind of rhetoric is what got us into this mess in the first place.
There is this mental pattern, that people look for the weakest argument and “destroy” their opponent and “win”. We’re not interested in the destruction, but we’re also not going to support bad arguments. It takes effort to overcome, because doing that is fun.
tl;dr Bernie made a bad point here. Let’s acknowledge that it was bad and move on.
The point is it isn’t really worse. Yet, anyway. He’s only been president for a few weeks so obviously it can get worse.
But right now, Trump is about as bad as every other president. Bad in different ways, of course, but they all belong in prison.
I disagree. No president has ever abandoned a democratic ally to invasion by an imperialist dictator for such petty, malicious reasons.
They might all belong in prison, but that’s like saying a shoplifter is just as bad as a serial killer.
No president has ever abandoned a democratic ally to invasion by an imperialist dictator for such petty, malicious reasons.
Well now hold on, we did that to the Kurds in… Wait, nevermind, that was also Trump.
The only reason Trump has this opportunity to screw over Ukraine is because Biden kept the war going. The previous administration pressured Ukraine to keep the war going instead of entering negotiations over territory back when Russia was in a much worse position than it is now.
The reason? At the time it appeared that the war was an opportunity to weaken Russia and let them to waste blood and treasure on an unwinnable quagmire.
Years later all they accomplished was killing more Ukrainians and Russia is stronger than ever. Biden got Ukraine here, even if Trump is the one to finish them off.
The only reason Trump has this opportunity to screw over Ukraine is because Biden kept the war going.
Some DARVO shit right here.
DARVO shit would be blaming Ukraine, which is what Trump does.
I’m blaming the imperial power that provoked the war in the first place and then stopped negotiations from taking place and never gave Ukraine enough aid to actually win outright. The plan was always to hurt Russia, not help Ukraine. They’re the victims in all this.
The US has a lot of responsibility for the war going on this long. All presidents are criminals.
I’m blaming the imperial power that provoked the war in the first place
So, Russia?
Russia was not justified in its invasion, but let’s not pretend the goal is just to steal land. They need a buffer state from NATO or it’s only a matter of time until they get the Libya treatment. This is to protect Russians, unfortunately Ukrainians got used as pawns to threaten them when their government was overthrown by a Western coup i.e. imperialism.
We have not only abandoned democracies (many of which were more democratic than Ukraine), we have actually been the ones to destroy them. Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran, Operation Condor targeting every democracy in South America, genocide in Indonesia, etc, etc. Trump’s stance on Ukraine is, at worst, not doing enough to protect a democracy from external threats, but America has frequently been the external threat democracies need protection from. Don’t you see how that’s worse?
Bidens genocide in Gaza is far worse than this. These selective standards are all over the place.
Democrats really think they can put the mask back on after taking it off.
Let’s compare Trump’s Ukraine policy to Biden’s Ukraine policy: It’s worse.
Let’s compare Trump’s Gaza policy to Biden’s Gaza policy: At best, it’s the same. More likely, it’s worse.
Who’s being selective?
It worse. Israel is blocking all aid, with full Trump support. Also, Trump-Gaza. He really doesn’t give a shit about civilians in Gaza.
Except one does not contradict the other. The United States has supported democracy, it’s just that that support is razor thin.
If we are playing silly semantics then Russia is a “democracy” as well and Trump is supporting “democracy”.
When you say Russia is more of a democracy than the US, I think that’s more of having no standards than playing semantics. They are both oligarchies, and you are basically living up to the lack of standards that is your namesake, the mockery of geneva conventions. ml users be ml users.
Are we in the same conversation or did the LLM start hallucinating?
Nothing silly here. “Fact checker” twisting Bernie’s words. Sad to be corrected yourself?
You can do both. Saying they’ve supported dictatorships doesn’t mean they haven’t also supported democracy. It’s bordering on being a non sequitur.
If the US ever supports democracy, it is purely by accident.
It is to own the winner.
No you can’t. You cannot say you support racial equality while holding a BLM sign one day and attending a KKK rally the next.
If I give you a dollar and I give Steve a dollar, I’ve supported you both.
Your example is also wrong. BLM and KKK are organizations. You absolutely can support both organizations by giving them money. It makes you a hypocrite and means you don’t believe in equality. But when has anyone claimed the United States isn’t hypocritical?
Steve and me are entities. Democracy is an ideology.
You cannot support an ideology while also supporting its polar opposite.
Jesus that’s a helluva straw man you got there.
🎶 If you only had a brain…🎶
Exact same thing but you are too hypocritic to admit it.
How can I have made a straw man argument when I didn’t even make an argument!?
Removed by mod
There are tons of other sources where you can know the US is a big sponsor of dictatorships.
Anyone that has been on this planet for a few decades would know that from his own experience and lifetime.
Afghanistan is a great example of the US bringing ‘democracy’.
Create and massively fund parties, have ‘free’ elections and see the Taliban win.
OC they had to do it over until theur puppet won.
When he finally grew a consciense and became too vocal about the US and their mass murdering he was replaced by another even more obvious puppet, Ghani. Who has been a US citizen for most of his life, was made to wear traditional clothes and grow a beard. (even then he was hated and it took a lot of shennanigans to get him ‘elected’.
He also fled in the middle of the night (like the US cowards) and stole more than $160 million from the empoverished country.
Wich is nothing compared to the US regime that stole billions from them out of spite.No headchopping Saudi has ever fought Iran.
They used their US weapons to invade Yemen and terrorise their great and brave people, with Iran the only ones to help the Palestinians.
Iran is in no way comparable to that awful SA.
BTW didn’t the US say they where going to make them a pariah state?
That went out of the window when they could do the biggest arms deal in history of 350 billion right?
And still lost the war against the Houthis😂To summarise, you’re full of shit.
Iran is fighting Israel. They are the best country in the Middle East.
Fun to see Democrats simping for Saudi to placate Israel now.
What a simplistic worldview
It’s called a “lesser evil”. Are you not a huge fan of it?
lesser target of Israel.
LOL look at the downvotes.
americans truely are cluelessIf you can’t make an argument without a political scape goat being attached to it, then it’s a bad argument.
Trumps son took 2 billion from the Saudis against the financial advice and suggestions of every expert they hired. It was, by all accounts, the largest in plain sight bribe ever witnessed.
Your argument is only a Dem problem if you cherry pick their name to attach to it.
Yes Fox News went on a hardline propaganda tour to whitewash the Saudi government a few years ago. Democrats coming around to it is what is surprising.
Does every negative comment about Democrats need a caviat also condemning Republicans to be valid?
Your comment was about how bad it is to cater to the Saudis.
Shitting on Dems isn’t needed to make that point. At all.
Unless your point was actually about shitting on Dems in the first place, and using the Saudis as an excuse.
Which is the point I was making, and now you are too:
Does every negative comment about Democrats need a caviat also condemning Republicans to be valid?
You can shit on the Saudis without shitting on a political party.
Instead, you’re just using “Saudis bad” as an excuse to attack Dems.
How does that do anything to further your point about the Saudis being awful? Your point is lost, and you just sound like every other brainwashed American.
Peak what-about-ism
Peak virtue signalling.
Even if you disagree with what that guy wrote it’s not in any way virtue signaling. Like brother what?
This is not fact checking. This is gaslighting. The fact that the USA has been supporting dictators for decades does not change or alter what Bernie is saying.
…Bernie said the US supported democracy. This is, in every conceivable way, a complete and total lie.
It’s such a ridiculous lie that you wouldn’t be able to say just those words after the year 1805.
Supporting manufacturing war against Russia without regards to their security concerns, or talking to them, may have been a necessity in loyalty to Biden. Keeping up the charade is definitely not progressive.
Stop drinking the Russian kool aid. This has literally been the Russian gameplan since they knew they couldn’t beat us in a hot war. Psy-ops to turn us anti-globalist is almost literally verbatim the whole plan.
You can accept that the US has done some shady shit that needs to be criticized and not forgotten about, without totally dumping liberal democracy and spewing straight Russian propaganda
Russian kool aid
It is understandable to be pro-war and a total warmonger because growing up in the United States, all the propaganda we hear and are taught since we are born is done to make us not question or critically think about our imperialist ways.
Growing up and learning the non-propaganda history and other views should shift you away from US military propaganda of liking forever wars and the blind nationalism of bringing “democracy” to Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, Europe, and Asia.
shady shit
That is a major downplaying and rewriting of the true history of our country.
Here is a small example of what we do to other countries and the only reason we know about this is due to it being leaked by great people: https://lemmy.world/post/15002828
I suggest reading up on the military leaks and many more independent journalists, fewer legacy media viewpoints; the major ones are Julian Assange and Edward Snowden leaks.
Russian propaganda
You do know that people can come to the same conclusion without needing others to tell us what to think or being tricked into seeing the world a certain way…
I suggest learning about the Uhuru Three and the Uhuru Movement: https://lemmy.world/post/23366029
I got reminded of a song: dead prez - They School | https://lemmy.world/post/26450948
Dictators are good when they steal resources from the people and share them with us.
arewethebaddies.gif
Whether technically correct or not (as I don’t know anything about this topic), what’s going on right now is insane, and if weapons were being sold to baddies under Obama, that also sounds shitty. So seems like any time is a good time to reflect upon how much power USA’s militarily-industrial complex possesses.
In any case, you guys need to do better.
Of course they provide for the dictatorships, who do you think put them there in the first place? It’s called responsible parenting sweaty 💅
Why is anyone on Xitter??
Another nit-pick by the circular firing squad of so-called progressives.
True American Patriots like Bernie understand that the USA was mearly subverted away from the Light of Democracy by malign actors.
Gaslighting from fascist twitter users more than circling firing squad. Definitely took an opportunity to try to dig at the GOAT.
Solid theory. The right does love to trawl through history looking for failed authoritarian regimes to soy over.
To fact check the fact check: There doesn’t seem to be a list of “dictatorships” on the Freedom house website. Interesting that they’re missing a link to that source isn’t it? Their point hinges on a listing from some website I’ve never heard of and they don’t link to it? A little sus.
Freedom house does have a listing of countries that are “free”, “not free”, and “partly free” here: https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
Note that Israel is considered a free country, and Gaza and the West Bank are listed as “not free”. So the methodology of used by the fact checker would consider providing aid to countries like Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey would count against the US while giving aid to Israel would be a positive. Providing aid to Palestine would be a double negative as the West Bank and Gaza are counted separately.
Also note that Ukraine is listed as “Partly Free” so I’m not sure whether the fact-checker is labeling Ukraine as a “dicatorship”. Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator, so who knows?
Seems to me the fact checker was just cooking the books to promote a narrative that what Trump is doing is the status quo. Trump is surrendering to a dictatorship that’s a threat to a great many democracies. It’s not at all comparable to providing aid to a country that has shitty leaders, but shitty leaders that will fight against ISIS and/or al Qadea. If those groups were successful it would not increase freedom in they countries they exist in.
And who knows who the fact-checker is? Elon Musk controls everything on that site.
The world’s dictators aren’t always opposed by people proposing democracy. For example we armed Syria’s dictator at that time because his opponent was DAESH/ISIL/ISIS/IS.
ISIS exists because America destroyed functional governments in order to steal their oil.
There were proto-groups that eventually conglomerated to form DAESH starting just after the USS Cole was bombed in Yemen in 1999. If you studied terrorism at the time or knew people involved in counter-terrorism you might have heard about those groups earlier.
That’s not to say the Invasion of Iraq in 2003 didn’t push these groups to prominence only that a version kind of existed before 3/2003.
Why was the USS Cole in Yemen
It was refueling. Al Qaeda pulled up a small boat and blew a hole in the Cole. Im wrong on the year though it was in 2000.
So the USS Cole was refueling, Al Qaeda appeared out of thin air to bomb the Cole and then ISIS spontaneously existed.
Al Qaeda has existed since the early 1990s. They had people all over the Middle East at that time. They didn’t materialize in Yemen they knew US Naval ships refueled in the port and arranged for two suicide bombers to attack the Cole.
DAESH starts to form from groups of militants in the Levant who had contact and training with AQ elsewhere sometime between 2003-4.
I am really confused as to how you came to the conclusion you posted unless you have zero grasp on the parties involved and the history of this time period for this region.
Damn where did that all come from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
