- cross-posted to:
- buyeuropean@feddit.uk
- cross-posted to:
- buyeuropean@feddit.uk
It’s only a proof of concept at the moment and I don’t know if it will see mass adoption but it’s a step in the right direction to ending reliance on US-based Big Tech.
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Fedora Origin: USA
No, thanks. 🙅
alternative POV: it’s entirely FOSS so there’s little control that can be exerted from its use. it’s also entirely free, so use is extracting value without providing anything in return. by its use, you’re taking resources to maintain, host, etc and providing nothing in return
similar reason to why i don’t use ecosia with an ad blocker: by blocking ads you’re using their resources without giving back and thus you’re taking resources away from the charity
This is true, but then why not base it off Guix (the GNU distro)? …I’m sure Fedora is full of binary blobs and not-so-free software.
They could still add extra software and blobs sourced by the EU if they needed it… and I think doing that would allow it to carve itself a niche rather than sticking a white label on Fedora and call it something else. I don’t see a lot of value on this over just using Fedora directly.
I’m sure Fedora is full of binary blobs and not-so-free software
fedora is staunchly opposed to non-free software in their default distro … that spat a few weeks ago with OBS was related to that AFAIK
unsure about like signed blobs for “security” services but i imagine they’d be very limited, and optional
rather than sticking a white label on Fedora and call it something else
but for what benefit? no matter what’s trying to be achieved, starting with a very full-featured, robust OS that’s widely used is going to serve you very well… not just technically (less work for the same outcome), but for human reasons
there are loads of guides out there for how to fix fedora issues, few for guix… loads of RPMs that are compatible with fedora, and i can only imagine fewer packages for guix
and then if you’re talking about server OSes - and actually workstations too - managing them with tools like ansible etc… fedora is going to have off the shelf solutions
just Fedora with different theme
well, the actual software and configuration i’d argue aren’t the important part - owning the infrastructure is the important part… package mirrors, distribution methods (eg a website), being able to veto or replace certain packages, and the branding (or regulation) that draws people to it… being able to roll out a security patch to every installation without a 3rd party okaying it, for example
The spat with the OBS devs was due to a fedora package maintainer refusing to package OBS with an older library for their own Fedora Flatpak repo, despite the newer library causing severe breakage with OBS (which is why the OBS devs held it back in the flathub release).
I think the point is, you just don’t support products from countries led by dictators. I wouldn’t use an OS from North Korea, no matter how free it was. LOL
In my case, the US is worse than North Korea, because they threaten the existence of my country (Canada) on a daily basis.
And for the EU, they have as much reason to distance themselves from Americans than I do.
There are far too many alternatives from other countries to even entertain an American distro. My opinion, anyway.
EUbuntu?
They should call it EUROS.
European Union Redstar Operating System?
Fedora based actually
EUdora, since I don’t think the mail client is still under development
Family Feudora
Meanwhile https://www.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/petition/content/0729%252F2024/html/Linux%2Bstatt%2BWindows just closed with 2474 Supporters
Well, first I hear of it.
Is this made by European union I wonder
No. It’s one dude.
From the subheading on the ReadMe.
Community-led Proof-of-Concept for a free Operating System for the EU public sector 🇪🇺
So it’s made by the EU in the sense that the maintainers are likely citizens of the EU, I guess.
Alr thanks
If something is free, you’re the product.
Generally true when we’re talking about capitalism.
That’s not necessarily true for FOSS projects, however, since money making isn’t necessarily their goal. Linus Torvalds doesn’t force you to watch an ad or sell off contributors’ data to get the privilege of using the Linux kernel, for example. Bazzite doesn’t sell IP addresses of people who download their distro to data aggregators.
However, you should do your homework and check who is in charge of projects like these and note what changes they’re bringing.
Depending on who the group is … it is good to first do a thorough check on who the group is … it can just as likely be a group of scam artists that are riding on some nationalism band wagon happening around the world these days.
True
They could, and if I was an EU government entity, I would do my homework on what they were offering, even if they were acting 100% in good faith.
However, helping governments get away from the clutches of the likes of Apple and Microsoft seems like a noble goal, and if this idea spurs that change regardless of the adoption of this distro, I think it will have been a net positive.
If they are honest about what they are suggesting … the first step would be to be explicitly clear about who THEY are and WHO they represent.
I really don’t care that much about the technical side of things because I’m not that technically knowledgeable. However, I am more apt to trust the judgment or recommendations of prominent people in the industry (that are not corporately attached or controlled) … I would also trust public institutions or journalists or academics with a track record of social advocacy and wanting to represent people instead of corporations or businesses. I would also trust politicians or political advocates that mostly represent people and public institutions.
I really don’t put my faith in any one person no matter who they claim to be to just say they want to build something meaningful and give me no information on their background, who they worked for, who they represent or what kind of people or organizations they associate with. There have been far too many ‘good natured’ technocrats and technology people from the past decade or two who claim to say that they want to change the world for the better and then end up wanting to burn it all down for a profit.
Sounds like you should run for office.
It’s going to have to start at the local level. They’re usually the ones that have less budget and less influence to sell, anyway.
So it’s made by the EU in the sense that the maintainers are likely citizens of the EU, I guess
Even after that, be reminded that this current mania in the EU has nothing to with being anti-american or wanting to dump American products or services themselves. The people who are most into this are anti-Trump, not anti-american or fundamentally against Europe being subordinate to the US. Most of them are probably secretly wanting the world to return to 2024 and EU being US junior partner of “the west” and happily eating MacDonalds and using microsoft services. It’s not an European sovereigist movement at it’s core and therefore it has not staying power after Trump or Maga.
It might be that these people are just Foss enthusiasts with pure intentions wanting to promote the cause by riding the wave. However if the wave is just a meme conjured because of Trump then this project or things like it have no staying power or future even if it really being an EU project or being adopted tomorrow.
There has been a will towards more independence for a long time. Trump was just an extra push (and I’m still not convinced even that will be enough… all these initiatives sound good, but past experience has made me skeptical they will really amount to anything substantial).
But I don’t see it necessarily as anti-american. It’s more like we do need to cultivate local products and services more. Europe has for a while been falling behind in a lot of areas, combined with an aging population and an energy crisis, we really need to try and develop internally if we want to keep ourselves afloat, otherwise I’m not sure we can maintain a stable situation.
Nah, just going along with Ukraine war and letting it get to and pushing to the point of war is a testament that Washington and Brussels are a foreign policy monolith. That finally sold it for me. EU is ready to sacrifice it’s interests to drive their perceived transatlantic interests that the two political classes mostly share. EU political elite and media mainly hate Trump because he showed that EU capitals and Brussels are bunch of losers with no real political agency, who got conned into supporting and prolonging this unwinnable war to the hilt and are now being left to hold the bag.
First concrete move towards EU independence would be to stop this war and normalize with Russia, but in this fucked up world Trump wants both and EU wants neither. That is the fucked up world we live in. EU wants further conflict on it’s continent and US doesn’t want a war in Europe.
I do personally want European independence, but I see that EU in it’s current state is not a force for it, nor is it good for Europeans.
I largely agree, that’s why I was saying that I’m skeptical that all this will amount to anything substantial.
The will for independence exists in the EU, the problem is that the politicians don’t have the balls for it and they would rather push to maintain the status Quo in all the things that matter. Instead they focus on small things that appear good on paper but don’t really amount to anything. See for example the DMA and all it’s promises of forcing big corporations to bend the knee and stopping monopolies… even when a policy like that is written, it is hardly ever properly enforced. Has any company gotten any serious trouble for not implementing GDPR properly since it was introduced?
I wonder how much work is entailed in transforming Fedora in to a distro that meets some definition of the word “Sovereign” 🤔
Personally I wouldn’t want to make a project like this be dependent on the whims of a US defense contractor like RedHat/IBM, especially after what happened with CentOS.
I didn’t know red hat was working for the US government. Can you tell me in what way?
At the same time, Red Hat released the first version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 2.1. The Army deployed Red Hat’s operating system in its Blue Force Tracker system, which lived in jeeps and tanks on the battlefield. Major General Nicholas Justice, the man responsible for Blue Force Tracker, said later:
“When we rolled into Baghdad, we did it using open source.”1
To this day, the U.S. Army remains one of Red Hat’s largest customers by volume. Red Hat was recently made part of the Army’s Common Operating Environment, which is their enterprise standard.
Thanks I’m gonna have a deeper look into this then😇
I didn’t know red hat was working for the US government. Can you tell me in what way?
tldr: https://www.redhat.com/en/solutions/public-sector/dod
Various documents in (what wikipedia now calls) the “2010s global surveillance disclosures” showed that many components of NSA (and other Five Eyes partners) infrastructure is run on RedHat Enterprise Linux.
According to a 2008 study by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, private contractors make up 29% of the workforce in the United States Intelligence Community and cost the equivalent of 49% of their personnel budgets. RedHat is part of that industry.
It’s often illuminating to search a company’s job listings for words like “clearance”. There are currently only eight listings for that query at RedHat but sometimes they have many more. Here (archive) is a current one. Here is another one archived last year.
Here is the text, in case the archive site loses it
Consulting Architect, TS/SCI + Polygraph Clearance Required (Fort Meade)
remote type Remote
locations Remote US MD
time type Full time
posted on Posted 30+ Days Ago
job requisition id R-038935
About The Job
Red Hat’s Public Sector Consulting team is looking for a Consulting Architect with a solid background in Linux, container platforms, IT Automation, virtualization technologies and an active TS/SCI + Polygraph security clearance to join us remotely in Maryland. In this role, you will help Intelligence Community customers design and operate core infrastructure that can scale to the demands of the modern digital marketplace. You’ll work with customers in small teams to build, test, and iterate over innovative application prototypes attached to real business value. You’ll use a variety of modern application development practices, along with emerging technologies from open source communities to get it done. As a Consulting Architect, you will help us become the defining technology company of the 21st century built on open source principles. You’ll also help us to fulfill our vision by guiding the strategic success of our customers using Red Hat’s solutions by building the industry’s best team of open source developers and partnering with our customers to build the premium software systems of tomorrow.
This position requires frequent on-site work at Fort Meade and an active TS/SCI + Polygraph security clearance.
What You Will Do
- Deliver successful discovery, analysis, and design workshops for teams of technical and non-technical backgrounds that shape the customer use cases and architecture design decisions
- Scope delivery projects and guide customers through successful pilot and production deployments
- Oversee the design, creation, and delivery of content that enables the broader Red Hat teams to sell (presales), service (consulting), and support our cloud solutions at scale
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- Demonstrate expertise in cloud and DevOps communities by producing outstanding whitepapers and webinars, code contributions to relevant projects, and speeches at industry-leading conferences
- Work with customers on the writing of business justifications if needed
- Work with the open source community to engineer labs-based software solutions designed to further accelerate our customers’ success at Labs
- Become a trusted adviser to our customers, helping them achieve business success in an ever-changing technology landscape
What You Will Bring
- Active Top Secret w/ SCI security clearance + Polygraph
- Broad knowledge of Red Hat OpenShift, Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform, and Red Hat Enterprise Linux
- Broad and deep technical experience with virtualization, container, and cloud technologies
- Solid Linux system administration skills; Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE)-level Linux skills or better; certifications are a plus but not required
- Experience with cloud technologies, especially Red Hat OpenStack Platform, Amazon Web Services (AWS), Microsoft Azure, and Google Compute Platform (GCP)
- Extensive technical experience with virtualization, especially Red Hat Virtualization, VMware vSphere, Microsoft Hyper-V, and Citrix XenServer; VMware Certified Professional certification is a plus
- Solid debugging, troubleshooting, and general problem-solving skills
- Great customer service skills and desire to make users successful
- Positive attitude, ability to work as part of a team, and excellent written and verbal communication skills
- Deep understanding of working with DISA, FISMA, NIST, and STIG security guidelines and how to adhere to them
- Experience working within the US Department of Defense (DoD) and US Intelligence Community (IC)
- Ability to make on-site customer visits
The following are considered a plus:
- Practical experience with Red Hat Satellite or similar systems-management technologies
- Experience with Red Hat Ansible Automation Platform or other IT automation and configuration management tools like Puppet or Chef
- Experience with datacenter automation tools and processes
- System administration or datacenter architecture experience
- Windows system administration
- Ruby, Python, or PowerShell programming experience
- Ability to study and learn quickly and put new topics into practice
- Passion for open source software
#LI-REMOTE #LI-AL2
The salary range for this position is $138,350.00 - $228,310.00. Actual offer will be based on your qualifications.
Pay Transparency
Red Hat determines compensation based on several factors including but not limited to job location, experience, applicable skills and training, external market value, and internal pay equity. Annual salary is one component of Red Hat’s compensation package. This position may also be eligible for bonus, commission, and/or equity. For positions with Remote-US locations, the actual salary range for the position may differ based on location but will be commensurate with job duties and relevant work experience.
About Red Hat
Red Hat is the world’s leading provider of enterprise open source software solutions, using a community-powered approach to deliver high-performing Linux, cloud, container, and Kubernetes technologies. Spread across 40+ countries, our associates work flexibly across work environments, from in-office, to office-flex, to fully remote, depending on the requirements of their role. Red Hatters are encouraged to bring their best ideas, no matter their title or tenure. We’re a leader in open source because of our open and inclusive environment. We hire creative, passionate people ready to contribute their ideas, help solve complex problems, and make an impact.
Benefits
- Comprehensive medical, dental, and vision coverage
- Flexible Spending Account - healthcare and dependent care
- Health Savings Account - high deductible medical plan
- Retirement 401(k) with employer match
- Paid time off and holidays
- Paid parental leave plans for all new parents
- Leave benefits including disability, paid family medical leave, and paid military leave
- Additional benefits including employee stock purchase plan, family planning reimbursement, tuition reimbursement, transportation expense account, employee assistance program, and more!
Note: These benefits are only applicable to full time, permanent associates at Red Hat located in the United States.
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(source)
Thanks I’m gonna have a deeper look into this then😇
I read the sovereign to mean something like an unified platform for EU institutions, that you can dev and train people on.
dependent on the whims of a US defense contractor like RedHat/IBM
A very good point.
Shame that Brexit happened, otherwise they could go with Canonical’s Ubuntu
I’m not sure if this is satire, because if yes, well played, if not, Fuck That.
But it’s a good starting point. Better than inventing everything from the scratch.
Love this! We definitely should try to spread Linux to become more accessible and popular.
I read EUDORA for a split second and got all excited that the best email client ever was getting reborn!
But this is cool too… i guess.
Why Fedora? They’re basically Red Hat in a trench coat. I’d go with a EU based distro like Suse.
Well, companies like Valve, they are a bit more worried if the distro are community or organization driven. So, for government, perhaps that same philosophy should be considered which is not the case of Fedora or Suse. They check distros such as Arch or Debian and derivatives.
Well, I don’t know about Valve being worried about community distro.
Did something change?
I found that a weird statement too. It’s literally based on a rapidly moving community distribution.
Sorry, it is very poorly worded. English isn’t my primarily language. What I intend to say is that government would benefit for picking a community distro, like Valve did, instead of a company driven one.
I was wondering the same when I came across it a few hours ago and decided to look into it, apparently it’s because it was decided to use an atomic distribution as a base and Suses is apparently not considered stable enough by them. (I can not argue the validity of these statements given either way, that’s just what I found in one of their gitlab issues . if someone wants to look at it for themselves, searching for Fedora on the issue tracker should bring it up)
Having seen SuSE destroy collaborators like OL, CNC and probably Turbo, I’m okay never even working with them as a customer. I intend to avoid them until death.
SuSE destroy collaborators like OL, CNC and probably Turbo
I’m very new with this and have no idea what OL, CNC and Turbo are. Could you please elaborate?
As much as I love what they’re doing, tieing an OS to a specific region via name seems like the opposite of Open Source values… Then again, I suppose it could just be forked into a more generalized version
This is specifically for the public sector. The fact that it is open source make it adaptable to different scenarios.
Europe isn’t a region, it’s a brand.
Europe isn’t a brand, it’s a life/style.
See? That’s great branding.
@SpiceDealer Sorry, what ? How can it be made in EU if it’s a Fedora fork/derivative ?
I mean Fedora is open source but if they really wanted a european base, they could have gone with opensuse. AFAIK opensuse is the only fully european linux distro plus they use many of the same tech that redhat/fedora does.
Ultimately I think it doesn’t matter too much since even the linux foundation is based in the US and large parts of what makes the linux desktop are maintained by non-EU companies (on top of all the major projects hosted by Github, Gitlab including most of Flathub). If its all open source, I think the risks are pretty low e.g. huawei was able to use Android despite all the restrictions.
@notanapple The more I read the docs, the more I think it doesn’t matter, they are poking around an EU distro. Nothing more, for now it is a proof of concept, not entitled to produce anything production ready
Of all the distros to base it on, why would they choose fedora?
openSUSE is right there lol
@ScotinDub I would say because it helps corporate adhesion, but no, they have no clue it’s just a POC for now eu-os.gitlab.io/goals
Yeah, not a lot of distros they could’ve based it on, which are less rooted in the EU. 🫠
@Ephera OpenSUSE is first to come to mind, then probably Mageia + OpenMandriva (Mandrake derivatives).
All these EU opensource initiatives looks really good, but I fear that they may just be trying to pump taxpayer money and produce actually nothing usable.OpenSUSE is German
As a Swede we claim all of linux to be finno-swedish :)
@lambipapp Legit 😆
Why Fedora? Sorry, but there are so many European options, it makes no sense to build a European house on an American basement.
As far as I’m concerned, open-source has no nationality, even for a public-sector project. Yes, Red Hat is American. They also don’t own Fedora.
From the very start, we’ve been built on the contributions of people from every corner of the globe, why should we care about petty geographical squabbles like this?
Yes, Red Hat is American, and whether you like it or not, this comes with legal and political dependencies. Fedora is subject to U.S. laws (e.g., Cloud Act, export controls), which poses a risk to EU digital sovereignty.
Yes, Red Hat does not own Fedora. And IBM, which owns Red Hat, also does not own Fedora. But it has significant influence and could prioritize business or political interests over EU needs.
And another question is: Why shouldn’t we use a European OS when we already have viable alternatives?
if you’re not paying it doesn’t really matter. open source belongs to everyone; it’s a disservice to put it in the same bag as, say, a Microsoft or Apple OS.
plus how far removed is enough? are we going to scrutinize what programming languages were used and where they originated as well?
Open source is free for everyone, I think the objection is more about an american company being able to directly influence the decisions, operating under US jurisdiction, etc.
Much like when IBM bought RH and then axed CentOS?
It’s still open source
Probably since it’s the main redhat upstream and they want the advantage of already widespread usage.
Although at that point why not OpenSUSE for the same reason you mentioned.
Suse is the first thing that came to mind
Security is a big focus for gov usage, why not base off of Debian?
Rolling release/bleeding edge means security updates roll out fast.
Regular release distros do security updates, backported if needed. Rolling release means introducing unknown security bugs until they are found and fixed. To me, the whole dilemma between regular and rolling is do I want old bugs or new bugs? But the security bugs get fixed on both.
Great sentiment I guess but I don’t see any reason to believe this will amount to anything.
And it’s based on fedora? Man, that’s great
Why not use the existing Distros?
Most distros, not all, are based in, or run by, American legal entities.
Redhat, Rocky, Alma, Debian, etc - all legally American. This is a problem if the US requires sanctions against another country. All of those cannot legally supply products to Russia now, but in the future who’s to say what other countries the US will sanction? People are only now starting to realise that sanctions can be applied to software too, and many countries are entirely reliant upon US Software. (Seriously, do a quick audit - 90% of our tech company’s stack is US originated)
Alternatives: Suse (German) Ubuntu (UK, but based on Debian, so likely subject to supply chain restrictions).
Can’t we just keep going with Ubuntu and fork it the moment the US wants to do anything funny
No, because forking a distro and updating some hundred thousands of PCs is not done in a week.
Edit: and why would we go with Ubuntu…
They’ll stop receiving updates, but we don’t have to switch over in a week right?
Ubuntu is just an example {{insert any Debian based distro here}}
“Made with ❤️ in Brussels by Robert Riemann”
Clicked his URL…
“physicist and computer scientist…passionate about open source and free software, cryptography…”
Whew, almost read crypto"currency"…
"…and peer-to-peer technology such as BitTorrent or Blockchain/Bitcoin.
Goddammit.
–
✍︎ arscyni.cc: modernity ∝ nature.To be fair, he said he’s passionate about peer-to-peer technology and listed Bitcoin as an example. I don’t think that makes him a crypto bro. He probably just appreciates the theory behind it.
hopefully a case of “if i don’t include this keyword i will miss out on tons of shit from stupid people who want into the trend”
