If you are keen on personal privacy, you might have come across Brave Browser. Brave is a Chromium-based browser that promises to deliver privacy with built-in ad-blocking and content-blocking protection. It also offers several quality-of-life features and services, like a VPN and Tor access. I mean, it’s even listed on the reputable PrivacyTools website. Why am I telling you to steer clear of this browser, then?

  • Ulrich@feddit.org
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    27 days ago

    tldr:

    • CEO was forcefully ousted from Firefox for anti-LGBTQ views and donations.
    • Replaced existing ads on sites with Brave’s own “private” ads.
    • Collected crypto on behalf of others without their knowledge or consent
    • Injected referral links into crypto websites to steal crypto revenue
    • Put ads in the new page tab
    • Shipped a TOR feature that leaked DNS
    • Doesn’t disclose the ID of their search engine crawler via useragent
    • Removed “strict” fingerprinting protection
    • CEO is generally a right-wing dick.
    • b0o@lemm.ee
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      27 days ago

      Thanks for the TLDR. Enough said, deleted Brave app. Firefox Focus is a good alternate.

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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      27 days ago

      CEO was forcefully ousted from Firefox for anti-LGBTQ views and donations.

      I think this is making mountains out of molehills. My understanding is that he had a very good working relationship w/ LGBTQ people in the org, and he had been working for many years at Mozilla before this point. The issue was his private donations to an anti-same sex marriage initiative. He didn’t push for any company policy change, didn’t advertise the donation, and didn’t use company funds (used personal funds), so it really shouldn’t be anyone’s business.

      I personally disagree with his political views, but I think he was a fantastic candidate for CEO of Mozilla. How he votes or spends his personal money shouldn’t be relevant at all.

      Replaced existing ads on sites with Brave’s own “private” ads.

      I like this idea in principle, but not in implementation. Brave should have worked with major websites to share revenue, but what Brave actually did was remove website ads and insert its own, forcing websites to go claim BAT to get any of that revenue back.

      My preference here is to not use a cryptocurrency and instead have users pay in their local currency into a bucket to not see ads (and that’s shared w/ the website), and that should be in collaboration w/ website owners.

      Collected crypto on behalf of others without their knowledge or consent

      This is a big nothing-burger.

      Basically, Brave had a way to donate to a creator that wasn’t affiliated with the creator. The way it works is you could donate (using BAT), and once it got to $100 worth, Brave would reach out to the creator to give them the money. They adjusted the wording to make it clear they weren’t affiliated with the creator in any way.

      Injected referral links into crypto websites to steal crypto revenue

      Yeah, this is totally wrong, and they reversed course immediately.

      Put ads in the new page tab

      Not a fan, but at least you can opt-out.

      Shipped a TOR feature that leaked DNS

      Mistakes happen. If you truly need the anonymity, you would have multiple layers of defense (i.e. change your default DNS server) and probably not use something like Brave anyway (Tor Browser is the gold standard here).

      Doesn’t disclose the ID of their search engine crawler via useragent

      Also a bad move, though I am sympathetic to their reasoning here: they just don’t have the resources to get permission from everyone. Search has a huge barrier to entry, and I’m in favor of more competition to Google and Microsoft here.

      Removed “strict” fingerprinting protection

      This was for better UX, since it broke sites. Not a fan of removing this, they should have instead had a big warning when enabling this (e.g. many sites will break if you enable this).

      CEO is generally a right-wing dick.

      Fair, but that should be a separate consideration from whether to use a given product. Using Brave doesn’t make you a right-wing dick.

      You probably wouldn’t like the CEO of any company whose products you like, so basing a decision of what product to use based on that is… dumb.

      I personally use Brave as a backup browser, for two reasons:

      • it’s a chrome-based browser
      • it has ad-blocking

      My primary browser is something based on Firefox because I value rendering-engine competition. But if I need a chromium-based browser, Brave is my go-to. I disable the crypto nonsense and keep ad-blocking on, and it’s generally pretty usable.

      • voodooattack@lemmy.world
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        27 days ago

        Fair, but that should be a separate consideration from whether to use a given product. Using Brave doesn’t make you a right-wing dick. You probably wouldn’t like the CEO of any company whose products you like, so basing a decision of what product to use based on that is… dumb.

        So it’s ok to buy a Tesla nowadays in your opinion? Genuinely curious.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          27 days ago

          So it’s ok to buy a Tesla nowadays in your opinion? Genuinely curious.

          Yes, if it’s the vehicle that fits your needs the best. Elon doesn’t need your money, and with Tesla getting roasted in the media, you can probably pick up a good deal.

          That said, I wouldn’t buy a Tesla for other reasons, such as:

          I do boycott certain products though, first among them is Wal-Mart, but that’s because I find Wal-Mart to be anti-competitive (drives smaller stores out of business) and they contribute to poor working conditions either directly (i.e. their own products) or indirectly (i.e. forcing suppliers to cut costs). I’ve been boycotting them for ~20 years, and honestly haven’t bothered checking if they’ve improved. I also try to avoid buying from Amazon for similar reasons.

          Maybe Tesla is similar to those, idk. I personally don’t buy Musk’s products because I find them lacking, and I haven’t needed any more reasons to avoid his products than that.

          I literally don’t care about the political views of the CEO/owner of a company. I dislike Chik-Fil-A’s founder, for example, but I like the food there and the workers seem to be treated well, so I shop there. I especially like that they’re closed on Sundays, which guarantees workers get at least one day off. Whether some idiot gets rich from a fraction of the money I spend on a certain product doesn’t bother me, I mostly care that the business is run well and the product is good.

      • Ulrich@feddit.org
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        27 days ago

        He didn’t push for any company policy change, didn’t advertise the donation, and didn’t use company funds (used personal funds), so it really shouldn’t be anyone’s business.

        It’s everyone’s business that cares about those people.

        How he votes or spends his personal money shouldn’t be relevant at all.

        Using products from a company that benefits him is empowering him to do those things.

        Brave should have worked with major websites to share revenue

        That’s a monumental task. They would have had to create their own ad network similar to Google and then somehow out-compete them to get their business without any of the information that Google has about users.

        they weren’t affiliated with the creator in any way.

        Yes, that’s the problem.

        Yeah, this is totally wrong, and they reversed course immediately.

        Only because they got caught, and they didn’t refund any of the crypto they earned in the interim.

        Mistakes happen.

        When it comes to TOR, mistakes can be a matter of life and death. People only use TOR when they need complete anonymity.

        they should have instead had a big warning when enabling this (e.g. many sites will break if you enable this).

        They did indeed have exactly that. It said in the actual setting itself “Strict, may break sites”.

        You probably wouldn’t like the CEO of any company whose products you like, so basing a decision of what product to use based on that is… dumb.

        Not true. I like Our Lord Gaben. I like Meredith Whitaker. I like lots of CEOs.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          27 days ago

          It’s everyone’s business that cares about those people.

          But is it though?

          Believing that same-sex marriage shouldn’t be a government-supported institution isn’t the same as believing LGBT people are “invalid” or “wrong” or whatever.

          For example, I personally oppose government-supported marriage entirely (despite being married myself) because I think marriage should be a religious/personal thing instead of an official government institution, and that we should replace it with a series of contracts that grant certain legal privileges (e.g. joint tax filing, power of attorney, etc) in an a la carte type setup (i.e. you may want to join finances w/ someone, but not give them hospital visitation rights). I think we should also allow more than two parties to enter into these agreements to cover a wide variety of unique living situations (e.g. you may want to joint file with a parent that you care for).

          I don’t know Eich’s personal political views, and I honestly don’t care, as long as they don’t interfere with his role.

          That’s a monumental task. They would have had to create their own ad network similar to Google and then solicit every site on the web to participate.

          Not necessarily. For example, they could partner w/ someone like Axate, which basically does just this.

          Only because they got caught, and they didn’t refund any of the crypto they earned in the interim.

          My understanding is that they can’t really do that, because the payments are anonymous. I could be mistaken though.

          When it comes to TOR, mistakes can be a matter of life and death. People only use TOR when they need complete anonymity.

          And if that applies to you, you should be very careful about the tools you use. Brave is a new thing and is relatively unproven. Use established, proven tools like Tor Browser.

          Not true. I like Our Lord Gaben. I like Meredith Whitaker. I like lots of CEOs.

          Eh, I don’t really like Gabe Newell, but I certainly appreciate the investment into Linux. It just so happens our interests align more than they don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if GabeN’s personal politics were quite conservative, because conservative policies generally benefit rich people like him (the closest I can see is maybe libertarian).

          Meredith Whitaker is an absolute treasure, we don’t deserve her.

          • Ulrich@feddit.org
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            27 days ago

            Believing that same-sex marriage shouldn’t be a government-supported institution isn’t the same as believing LGBT people are “invalid” or “wrong” or whatever.

            How is it not?

            we should replace it with a series of contracts that grant certain legal privileges

            I mean, legally, that’s what marriage is.

            you may want to join finances w/ someone, but not give them hospital visitation rights

            You don’t have to do either of those things just because you’re married. Marriage just gives you the option.

            For example, they could partner w/ someone like Axate

            And what would they bring to this partnership?

            And if that applies to you, you should be very careful about the tools you use.

            You should be. But companies also should not be creating tools that propose to give you those protections when they’re not smart enough to. Just leave it to the professionals.

            I wouldn’t be surprised if GabeN’s personal politics were quite conservative

            As long as he keeps his mouth shut about them and doesn’t financially support them, he’s doing worlds better than Mr. Eich.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              27 days ago

              Believing that same-sex marriage shouldn’t be a government-supported institution isn’t the same as believing LGBT people are “invalid” or “wrong” or whatever.

              How is it not?

              It seems incredibly obvious to me. For example, here are some things I believe:

              • gambling is bad - yet I support legalization of gambling; why? Personal freedom comes first.
              • prostitution is bad - yet I support legalization of prostitution; why? Sex work will happen, so it’s better for it to be properly regulated than happen on the black market
              • drug use is bad - yet I support legalization of recreational drugs; why? Illegal drugs laced w/ fentanyl are a big problem, and most drug users would be better off w/ a regulated service.

              Personal beliefs about what government policy should be can be very different than personal beliefs about what is “good” and “bad.”

              To be clear, I support same-sex marriage because it’s on the table and my preferred alternative has almost no shot of being considered. So I support it as a harm-reduction policy, not because I actually believe the government should actually regulate marriage.

              I mean, legally, that’s what marriage is.

              Marriage is a basket of contracts (power of attorney, joint custody, financial obligations, etc), and it’s limited to two people, which is odd. The original intent seems to be to encourage procreation, but it’s hardly enforced at all, nor is that particularly important in most countries (except maybe Japan).

              We should treat marriage similarly to corporations. If you want to call your civil partnership “marriage,” more power to you. If you want to call it being BF/GF, life partners, or whatever else, more power to you. The government should only care that you meet the requirements for whatever the benefit is.

              You don’t have to do either of those things just because you’re married. Marriage just gives you the option.

              In many (most?) states, it is enforced unless you specifically opt-out (e.g. a pre-nup). Laws certainly vary by state, but generally speaking, if you’re legally married, anything you earn in the marriage is considered joint assets, even if you keep them in separate accounts. In some areas, things you bring into the marriage are also jointly owned, unless they are never interacted with.

              That’s why divorces are so messy, the couple could have agreed to keep things separate at the start, but without any evidence of that, it’s up to the courts to decide what’s fair. And pretty frequently, they’ll lean on the side of 50/50 for all assets, regardless of when it was acquired or what the understanding was.

              And what would they bring to this partnership?

              Integration into the browser product, users, and marketing.

              I’ve been wanting Firefox to do something like this so get more visibility w/ online services. I’d love to be able to load up an account balance and click “view article” and the website owner sucks a few pennies from that balance or whatever. But my only options are:

              • find a workaround w/ my ad-blocker - reader mode, archive, etc
              • make yet another account and maybe pay for a monthly subscription (why do that when I only want the one article?)
              • not read the article

              Axate provides more than that, but so few online services work w/ it. A browser could bring them a ton of visibility.

              But companies also should not be creating tools that propose to give you those protections when they’re not smart enough to. Just leave it to the professionals.

              Agreed. But like I said, users request features, bugs happen, etc. At the end of the day, the responsibility is on the user to pick the right product for their needs. Brave isn’t that product for at-risk individuals until it has been vetted by actual security experts.

              As long as he keeps his mouth shut about them and doesn’t financially support them, he’s doing worlds better than Mr. Eich.

              Eich did the first half of that, his only “sin” was that someone found out about his donation. That’s it. My understanding is that nobody was aware of it until someone dug into the donation records.

              • Ulrich@feddit.org
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                27 days ago

                gambling is bad - yet I support legalization

                Got it, so being gay isn’t “wrong” or “invalid”, it’s just “bad”?

                it is enforced unless you specifically opt-out (e.g. a pre-nup)

                Yes, that’s what I was referring to. You might call it a “contract”.

                Integration into the browser product, users, and marketing.

                They don’t need Brave for that. They need the website owners. If you’re talking about injecting Axate ads where Google and other ads already are, then we’re back to square 1 where you’re ripping off content creators from their revenue for their content.

                I’d love to be able to load up an account balance and click “view article” and the website owner sucks a few pennies from that balance or whatever.

                The problem with doing that with fiat is that there are transfer fees. You’d essential be paying a $3 to transfer 5 cents. That’s why everyone uses crypto for this.

                But like I said, users request features

                Users can request features all day, developers are the ones who have to implement them.

                bugs happen

                It’s a completely unnecessary bug from someone trying to replace a perfectly safe and secure tool with their own and build value for themselves. This isn’t just any bug. Like I said, people’s lives can hang in the balance in a very real way. They need to get it right or just stay the fuck away.

                the responsibility is on the user to pick the right product for their needs

                Bullshit. Both are responsible.

                Brave isn’t that product for at-risk individuals until it has been vetted by actual security experts.

                Then they shouldn’t have launched it.

                Eich did the first half of that

                Not good enough.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  27 days ago

                  Got it, so being gay isn’t “wrong” or “invalid”, it’s just “bad”?

                  I didn’t say that.

                  My point here is that personal views can differ from political policy views.

                  Yes, that’s what I was referring to. You might call it a “contract”.

                  The issue is that it’s opt-out. Instead of that, people should opt-in only to the parts they want.

                  If you’re talking about injecting Axate ads where Google and other ads already are

                  No, I’m talking about creating a protocol where browser clients can inform website owners that the customer is using this separate method of payment. It could happen separate from the browser (e.g. as an extension), but the browser gives it a lot more visibility.

                  The UX here would be pretty simple: if the user has enabled this feature, websites would prompt users for payment or to show ads.

                  Browsers win because they get a revenue stream, Axate wins by having more customers, and websites win because they’re getting paid instead of customers blocking ads.

                  The problem with doing that with fiat is that there are transfer fees. You’d essential be paying a $3 to transfer 5 cents. That’s why everyone uses crypto for this.

                  That’s why you batch up transfers. General flow:

                  1. users load up a balance (say, $20)
                  2. service (e.g. Axate) tracks which payments have been made and bulk pays website owners monthly or whatever

                  Boom, total number of transfers are pretty low, no need for cryptocurrencies.

                  Both are responsible.

                  Sure, but the browser vendor has very little at stake, whereas the user has everything at stake. At the end of the day, it’s on the user.

                  Not good enough.

                  You’re welcome to your opinion. I personally don’t have an issue with how people spend their money, I only have an issue with how they treat their employees and choices they make about their product.

      • endeavor@sopuli.xyz
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        26 days ago

        Using software made by people who are politically aligned to sell out your country to russia is stupid stupid stupid and makes you an idiot, idiot, idiot.

        Its not just politics when the politics are treason and electing a kgb asset. In a normal country and time it wouldn’t be a big thing wether your browser maintainer wants feee public transit or not but in current time right wing means you literally voted to destroy the entire us in order to weaken nato for the russian invasion.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          26 days ago

          It sounds like you need to step away from social media and touch some grass.

          But let’s say you’re right, pretty much every big company is sucking up to Trump, and you’d be hard pressed to find something in your shopping cart that doesn’t benefit someone that supports him. That’s an untenable position.

          The better approach, IMO, is to avoid products from companies that mistreat their employees. That’s why I avoid Walmart, Amazon, and a few others, because that sends a clearer message and funnels my money to a better cause.

          Avoiding Brave is just virtue signaling, it doesn’t actually accomplish anything. If Brave goes under, Eich will still be conservative and probably still donate to causes you don’t like, but we’ll have one less competitor to Google’s absolute hegemony over the web browser market.

          Use Brave if it solves your problems, don’t if it doesn’t. Don’t base that decision on the personal views of the person who happens to be in charge.

          • ubergeek@lemmy.today
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            26 days ago

            but we’ll have one less competitor to Google’s absolute hegemony over the web browser market.

            Brave isn’t a competitor to Google, it’s an enabler. It uses the same engine, which is all Google cares about: Their engine, their internet.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              26 days ago

              It absolutely is a competitor. Yes, it uses the same engine, but it blocks their ads. And at the end of the day, serving ads is what Google wants to do.

              But again, Firefox (and forks) is my main browser, and it’s what I recommend to everyone. But Brave is on my list of acceptable Chromium browsers, assuming you need a Chromium browser (I do for web dev at my day job).

              • ubergeek@lemmy.today
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                26 days ago

                Yes, it uses the same engine, but it blocks their ads.

                Which means nothing, when Google can, and is, pushing technology to freely unleash their ad network on all web pages, as a function of the engine itself.

                No, it’s not a competitor. Excepting in their ad markets, and frankly, it’s not a competitor, it’s a statistical blip.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  26 days ago

                  as a function of the engine itself.

                  AFAIK, there’s nothing in Blink (the rendering engine), V8 (the JavaScript run engine), or any other low level pieces of the browser that does this. What they’re doing is hamstringing extensions and building in a layer of tracking into the browser on top of the engine. A fork can absolutely keep the engine bits and remove the tracking bits.

                  The problem with Chrome’s hegemony over the rendering engine has nothing to do with their ad network, but with their ability to steer people to use their products instead of competitors’ (e.g. “Google Docs is faster on Chrome, switch today!” just because they introduced a chrome-only spec extension).

                  Brave absolutely is a competitor. They block Google’s ads, have their own search engine (and are building their own index), and provide a privacy friendly alternative to Chrome without any compatibility issues. That’s why it’s my backup to Firefox (and forks), sometimes things don’t work properly on Gecko and I want a privacy-friendly alternative to chrome. That used to be Chromium w/ uBlock Origin, but with that extension taken from the chrome web store, I reach for Brave, which has it built in.

                  And yeah, it doesn’t have a ton of users. That doesn’t mean they’re not a competitor though.

    • Ulrich@feddit.org
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      27 days ago

      My take: No other browser is sustainable without advertising. Orion looks to be that guy, but we will see. We’ve already seen many other browsers stop development, like Mull and LibreWolf, due to lack of resources. Firefox itself is on the chopping block with Google potentially being forced to sell Chrome. We’ll see what Kagi is able to manage with Orion, though releasing it with pretty much all the features one could want for free doesn’t appear promising. I think taking a “private advertising” approach is the best we’re going to get. This makes Brave sustainable.

      The CEO is a dick, no doubt, but they pretty much all are, and every browser has it’s drawbacks.

      As far as the useragent, I kinda agree with Brave on that one. Sites want to be crawled by Google but they will block anyone else, which obviously creates an anticompetitive environment in an industry that severely needs competition.

      As for the fingerprinting, I kinda get it. I’m sure some users were turning on strict protection and then complaining about the browser not working properly and ultimately ditching it while complaining to others. That being said, even with “standard” fingerprint blocking, Brave is the only browser I’ve used on CoverYourTracks and it returned “you have a randomized fingerprint”. I’m not any sort of tech genius but I think the folks at EFF are and I trust them.

      • ripcord@lemmy.world
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        27 days ago

        We’ve already seen many other browsers stop development, like (…) LibreWolf, due to lack of resources.

        Wait, what?

        Two things:

        1. When did Librewolf stop development?

        2. On funding, they say in their FAQ:

        If we don’t need funding, we won’t risk becoming dependent on it. And also: no donations means no expectations. This means that people working on LibreWolf are free to move on to other projects whenever they want.

        Librewolf seems to very consciously not looking for “resources” from advertising or donations, or etc. The only resource they seem to want is motivation.

        Which I think is one of the big issues with OSS projects - many are based around a very small number of people being motivated to work on something for free. And it dies if that stops.

        I think that having expectations and funding to continue is important, like you say.

        But I’m still confused about what you mean by the “resources” comment re: Librewolf.

        • Ulrich@feddit.org
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          27 days ago

          When did Librewolf stop development?

          https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js/issues/1906

          “Hey all, I’m on the LibreWolf team, and it’s true that since the departure of @fxbrit the project has taken a total nosedive when it comes to keeping up to date with Arkenfox and settings in general. We’re still making releases, but settings did not get updated.”

          “As @threadpanic said, since fxbrit left we have been in a kind of “maintenance” mode in terms of settings. Mainly because we are really only three people left”

          “LW since fxbrit left/died/who-knows has gone to shit - I worked with him behind the scenes to make the right choices and while he would do his own analysis, we always agreed, and his voice influenced them. Now they don’t know what they are doing, and in fact have compromised security and make really stupid decisions. Same goes for all the other forks - really dubious shit going”

          Which I think is one of the big issues with OSS projects - many are based around a very small number of people being motivated to work on something for free. And it dies if that stops.

          Exactly.

          But I’m still confused about what you mean by the “resources” comment re: Librewolf.

          “Resources” can refer to many different things, in this case it is motivation/prioritization.

          • nuko147@lemm.ee
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            27 days ago

            Oh SHIT. I had a feeling since months, as an end-user, that something wasn’t going well. But damn, i did not know that was that bad.

          • swelter_spark@reddthat.com
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            27 days ago

            That thread is several months old, and is specifically about integrating Arkenfox settings changes. I wouldn’t say Librewolf has ceased development based on the fact that their default settings differ from Arkenfox. Their Codeberg site shows ongoing work.

            • Ulrich@feddit.org
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              27 days ago

              That thread is several months old

              And? You have new evidence that things have improved?

              and is specifically about integrating Arkenfox settings changes

              Why does that matter?

        • AbnormalHumanBeing@lemmy.abnormalbeings.space
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          27 days ago

          I can somewhat understand the overall criticism, because Librewolf - as far as my understanding goes - would be in trouble without the work being done on the code upstream.

          Personally, I know that this does not exist (yet), and to some people that put privacy above everything else with a more libertarian slant, this might sound like the worst option imaginable, but my “dream” way to handle it within the current economic system would be:

          Have an open source, FOSS base, web-engine and all, developed with public funds similar to public broadcasting in many countries (Bonus if carried by international organisations instead of just national. Think a UN institution like UNESCO or WHO, but focused on making the internet accessible neutrally and to all). On top of that code, projects that want to put privacy above all else could still feasibly built projects like LibreWolf (an even Brave), relying somewhat comfortably on secure fundamentals.

          I know, sounds like a dream, which it is at this point. But every other solution within the current economic status quo I personally thin of, I see no chance of enshittification not always encroaching and creating crises, if not outright taking over.

          • Ulrich@feddit.org
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            27 days ago

            developed with public funds similar to public broadcasting

            Personally, I’d never touch a browser funded by the gov.

            • AbnormalHumanBeing@lemmy.abnormalbeings.space
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              27 days ago

              I think that is utlimately valid - although I think the other options are all coming with their own problems. You will then have to instead live with the interests of tech corporations (including nonprofits who ultimately need funding) and advertisers collecting your data, whose interests will ultimately not be much less malignant - or small free software projects of a sometimes quite limited scope. The latter, I think, is also a valid niché, but will leave the overall standards of the internet to corporate interests.

              Considering how the CEO here acts for Brave, in my opinion, this is not simply about him being an asshole or being politically questionable. To me - everything about him screams “grifter taking advantage of people’s legitimate concerns” - and he has a material interest in your data as well. Brave always felt to me like trying to sell and market privacy instead of proving to me, in their fundamentals, that they actually have my interests in mind.

              Which is why I, personally, do not really understand choosing Brave above LibreWolf (or Tor Browse, occasionally), if privacy is your #1 priority.

            • AbnormalHumanBeing@lemmy.abnormalbeings.space
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              27 days ago

              Oh, yes, it wasn’t a direct answer, also, I’m not the person you answered to. Ultimately, my comment was more meant as an overall addition to the discussion, building on the idea of what a solution to:

              Which I think is one of the big issues with OSS projects - many are based around a very small number of people being motivated to work on something for free. And it dies if that stops.

              might be.

              But as answers to your two points. #1 - I have no idea where they got that from, myself #2 - I think you answered that one yourself rather well, and I wanted to build on that one.

              Sorry if that was confusing, my brain is also good at confusing myself at times, can’t imagine how that is for others at times.

      • kingthrillgore@lemmy.ml
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        27 days ago

        No browser is sustainable without money because

        • The infrastructure and labor costs money
        • Google charges out the ass for Widevine which is a must for Netflix, Apple TV+, etc
        • H.264 Licensing
          • Synapse@lemmy.world
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            27 days ago

            A Web browser is a complex piece of SW that needs to provide many, many, features and work with great performance. Therefore you need a large team of experienced developers (full-time and maybe volunteers) collaborating on the development and testing. This is cost in labor and infrastructures (servers, storage, internet connection, hosting of platforms, etc)

            One such feature that is a must-have is playing videos, from YouTube, Netflix, Prime, Twitch and what have you. Most widely spread video codecs are proprietary, you need a license to implement the decoder and these licenses are expensive. H.264 is one such codec, very widely spread across many content and platforms. You wouldn’t want a web browser that lacks the ability to decode H.264 videos. There are many such codecs that are considered essential, and this cost a lot of money in total.

            In conclusion, this is an argument as why developing a web browser costs money and requires a sustainable financial plan, even though it is open-source and developed mostly by volunteers.

            My personal opinion: advertisement sucks. I don’t want it anywhere in my life. I would prefer to pay upfront for my web browser if it come to this.

      • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
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        27 days ago

        My take: We can have an open source browser. No resources are required. We don’t need ads to view content we make. There is no need for a megacorp or any entity taking money and controlling us.

        • Ulrich@feddit.org
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          27 days ago

          We can have an open source browser.

          Most browsers are already open source. They’re all funded by advertising (except Safari which is a whole other problem).

          No resources are required.

          Are you planning to imagine it into existence?

          When you find one that has some sort of sustainable model that isn’t advertising, please let me know. I’ll be all over it.

          • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
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            21 days ago

            Okay are you ready?

            The model:

            • We program it
            • For literally fun
            • Together many people, that find different parts of bringing the web to people safely
            • We do it completely altruistic
            • Ulrich@feddit.org
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              21 days ago

              I don’t think you understand. It would take you time to do that. A whole lot of time. Probably thousands of hours. Time is what’s known as a “resource”.

              • KeenFlame@feddit.nu
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                21 days ago

                I understood perfectly, your claim is that it takes advertisement. Not time. And nobody has said it doesn’t take time.

      • cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml
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        27 days ago

        Since when did LibreWolf stop development? First I heard of it, and concerning if accurate.

        • Ulrich@feddit.org
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          I was just reading about it in another thread that I don’t remember. Not really “stopped” per se but one of the major devs left and the remaining have admitted they’re not able to keep up. I’ll go and see if I can find it again and I’ll edit this comment if I do.

          • cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml
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            27 days ago

            I remember they saying the were too swamped to take on an Android version after Mull dev stopped, which is not the same as stopping. Mull actually stopped development, LibreWolf didn’t - they should not be mentioned in the same sentence like that.

  • legion02@lemmy.world
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    27 days ago

    The CEO of brave is a homophobic bigot if that helps push anyone over the edge for changing their browser. It was the last straw for me.

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    27 days ago

    This is a very well written an thorough article and I highly recommend reading it. If you don’t want to however, here is a summary of the key points:

    Edit: corrected a mistake noted below.

      • nocturne@sopuli.xyz
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        Every time I mention that brave is a bad choice that is basically the response I get.

      • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        27 days ago

        Every time someone uses Brave, I know I can ignore their opinion. They’re either a useful moron who is too dumb to look around them, or they support every single one of these things.

        It’s no wonder why 4chan’s /g/ loves Brave.

      • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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        27 days ago

        I don’t care about the personal life of the CEO, and I don’t care about crypto, and everything else is a giant pile of nothing. Ads in the home screen? Like who gives a shit??

        • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          27 days ago

          So the CEO of the company funding Prop 8 to overturn gay marriage is nothing? Stealing from the creators it claimed to be funding? Being a right wing hotspot is cool with you?

          Good to know that’s where you stand.

    • Noxy@pawb.social
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      Prop 8 was not merely proposed, it was approved by voters and actually banned same-sex marriage for several years before it was ruled unconstitutional.

      Brendan Eich contributed to the actual banning of same-sex marriage in California for several years.

  • nucleative@lemmy.world
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    27 days ago

    Fascinating… I knew some of this and it is indeed troubling.

    It seems that Brave’s mission is actually about generating revenue by any method possible (including manipulation of end users) more than anything to do with privacy.

    If you’re cool with all that then Brave is for you I guess.

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    I agree that Brave is problematic and most of the criticisms are also legitimate. But the point about the crawlers is not really a problem. If you respect the wish of websites to be indexed exclusively by Google, you support Google’s monopoly and prevent alternative search engines from having similarly good results.

    • Jerry on PieFed@feddit.online
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      I see no legitimate reason for not using a User Agent string, like all the other crawlers use, other than the desire to hide the crawler and make it difficult to block.

      I don’t accept his explanation. I see it as gaslighting.

      • yqccv9v3li8o@lemmy.sdf.org
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        Why should the crawler be blockable? That only brings disadvantages for a search engine. There is no sensible reason to allow Google but exclude other search engines.

        • unautrenom@jlai.lu
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          It’s not about ‘Google’ vs ‘the other search engines’. It’s about transparency. You’ve probably read some news about how AI crawlers have been destroying infrastrucure and half the time does NOT declare themselves as crawlers in their UA.

          Can confirm that nealy 90% (read hundreds of thousands) of daily visits to several of my websites are made by crawlers from datacenters and I HATE not knowing whose who. Because when I don’t know, I block and report. Website owners already have enough between AI, Page Rankings, and Research Agencies who all exploit free infra for their own business.

          Do I make exceptions for Search Engine crawlers? Yeah, I do. I’ve seen Google, Bing, and Mojeek, but weirdly enough, never Brave. Now I know why. And frankly, if they can’t be bothered to be transparent about their crawlings, then I won’t be bothered to make exceptions for them. They’re freeloading just as much as the rest. If they act like shady chinese crawlers, then they have no right to go pikachu face when they’re treated like one.

    • FauxPseudo @lemmy.world
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      27 days ago

      ‘s/ly (.) (.)/\2/’

      There is nothing good about Google results. They haven’t been usable for years.

  • Katherine1@midwest.social
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    27 days ago

    I’ve heard enough of this stuff over the years to never be tempted to try the browser out. At this point, I feel like it’s claim to privacy is mostly marketing. Personally, I’m going to stick to LibreWolf.

  • Libra00@lemmy.world
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    27 days ago

    Wow, what scummy bastards. I used the browser for a little bit, and I kinda figured they were up to some shady shit when I noticed a crypto-wallet was included, but I ignored all that shit and it was fine. But if I’d known what the CEO or the company in general had been up to I’d have dropped that shit like a bad habit long before I did for other reasons.

  • blipcast@lemmy.world
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    Thank you for posting this! I had a vague recollection there was something scummy about Brave, and I was surprised to see it recommended in so many of the “Which browser should I use?” posts. It’s really handy to have a chronical of bullshit like this to point to when it comes up

    • Ulrich@feddit.org
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      You could make a similar “chronical” about any other browser. They’re often recommended because in many ways they are the least shitty and most sustainable.

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    27 days ago

    Disabling Brave Rewards on a new installation is not any harder than disabling Firefox’s Pocket crap, or Edge’s Copilot integration, or Chrome’s send-everything-to-Google behaviour.

    I wish one day we can get a browser that serves the user instead of browser maker, but for now i’ll keep using Brave (it’s at least open source).

  • panic@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    27 days ago

    Does anyone have a recommendation for a browser to use on my iPhone other than Brave? I tried Firefox first, but evidently I can’t install extensions for ad blocking due to iPhone restrictions, so I’m using Brave on just this one device.

    • SuiXi3D@fedia.io
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      27 days ago

      Every browser on iOS is just Safari wrapped in a different skin because of Apple’s requirements.

    • jmf@lemm.ee
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      27 days ago

      If you want to block youtube ads, I think it is really the only option as of now. Adguard can be downloaded on the app store and it does a mediocre job blocking ads, but the placeholder space for them remains and it straight up fails to block some for me. I am stuck with brave for now until something better comes along.

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    27 days ago

    I don’t use Brave but honestly there aren’t many options left. I can’t wish for Orion to launch any sooner.