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IIRC, it’s nearly impossible to self-host email anymore, unless you have a long established domain already. Gmail will tend to mark you as spam if you’re sending from a new domain. Since they dominate email, you’re stuck with their rules. The only way to get on the good boy list is to host on Google Workspace or another established service like Protonmail.
That’s on top of the fact that correctly configuring an email server has always been a PITA. More so if you want to avoid being a spam gateway.
We need something better than email.
We need something better than email.
Say everyone agrees and the entire world swaps to some alternative. Email 3.0 or whatever.
Wouldn’t we just have the same issue? Any form of communication protocol (that can be self host able) will get abused by spam. Requiring a lot of extra work to manage.
Setting up a web of trust could cut out almost all spam. Of course, getting most people to manage their trust in a network is difficult, to say the least. The only other solution has been walled gardens like Facebook or Discord, and I don’t have to tell anyone around here about the problems with those.
Isn’t the current email system kind of a web of trust. Microsoft, Google etc… trust each other. But little me and my home server is not part of that web of trust making my email server get blocked.
Yeah, that’s kinda what my GP post was getting at. But it’s all managed by corporations, not individuals.
Realistically I don’t see how it would ever not be managed by a corporation. Your average person doesn’t know how and doesn’t want to manage their own messaging system. They are just going to offload that responsibility to a corporation to do it for them. We are just going to have exactly the same system we have now. Just called some else besides email.
I wish there was a better solution but I am not seeing a way that doesn’t just end up the same as email.
I self-host mine using Mailcow, but I use an outbound SMTP relay for sending email so I don’t have to deal with IP reputation. L
On top of that, most ISPs block port 25 on residential IP addresses to combat spam, making it impossible to go full ”DIY”
Well, there’s always, you know, mail.
Aah, the good ol‘ wooden variety
If self-hosting is going to become commonplace, then it needs to be easier than setting up a network printer. People should be able to just buy a computer (maybe a laptop for integral screen and UPS) preloaded with something like Yunohost, but with a sleek GUI. It has to have good wizards that walk you through everything including setting up a domain and email.
It has to have good wizards that walk you through everything including setting up a domain and email.
i disagree honestly.
Part of the point behind self hosting is to empower people with the knowledge and capability that they can do this shit, and fix any problems that result.
You aren’t really getting people into right to repair, if they aren’t at least espousing it, and trying to engage in it themselves. Sure you can always go to a third party to do something at the end of the day, but with how broad right to repair is, there is almost certainly something in your life that you can fix and repair.
Like it’d be good that people are doing that, but you also need to remember that this is literally a turn key product, that literally every cloud provider sells, and every company ever who will try to force proprietary buggy garbage on you, will pretend is good, and functional. Will try to sell you, because you don’t know any better. I think it’s just a cultural difference. Car guys that spend time working on their car simply wouldn’t understand the average persons conceptual understanding of repairing vehicles, and vice versa. It’s the same here.
What you are suggesting here, is a sold, turn key solution, except fully open source, no bugs, no issues, and wide reaching community support. I don’t think that’s reasonably possible.
I think ultimately, we need to make learning, and accessing learning materials easy (we already do a great job at it) and we just need to get people interested in this shit, some people won’t. That’s fine, they probably know someone that is though. And at the end of the day, that’s probably good enough.
you also need to remember that this is literally a turn key product, that literally every cloud provider sells
I am unaware of server products that I can just buy, plug in, and get up and running in minutes with my own ActivityPub instances, media storage/streaming, XMPP messaging, and etc. If they really exist, please share links.
There’s certainly value in doing this stuff the hard way, but the goal should be for self-hosting to be as easy as signing up with Google, Facebook, Spotify, etc. There aren’t enough people with the time and curiosity to figure out the current state of self-hosting and make a dent in the three website problem.
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Jellyfin and Yunohost are two projects that have simplified self-hosting and made it accessible for me. I just think more progress can be made in that direction.
and yet, here we are, on lemmy.
As far as I can tell, you are not self-hosting the Divisions by Zero Lemmy instance, so I’m not sure what your point is there. I am actually self-hosting my lemmy.crimedad.work instance with the help of Yunohost.
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I feel attacked by this post. I self host Home Assistant, recursive proxy servers, RSS readers, photo managers, vscode, media servers, download managers, backup solutions, git, password databases, economy trackers… And if I need to print from my macbook I have to email the file to myself because in twenty years I haven’t ONCE been able to host my printer on the network in a way that works for more than three days before randomly breaking.
I feel this post so hard. I’m always about 5 seconds from going Office Space on my printer.
Yeah! Fuck printers and scanners! Imagine one day going to your scanner, putting in it a receipt and then pressing the scan to PC button and actually getting it to work! Instead, you go to your computer and to the folder you named scans and there’s nothing!
I have yeeted printers out of non-ground level apartment windows before, so i feel your pain. i bought a brother laser jet printer and hardwired it to a switch port and have not had connectivity issues for years. i can easily print from my phone, pc, laptop, whatever.
Lol I know what you mean. Maybe I am speaking more to the ideal of the home network printer than real life. My experience with them over the last twelve years or so hasn’t been as terrible as yours, but it hasn’t been perfect either.
Hello brother. 🙏 May I talk to you for a minute about our lord and savior Brother Laser Jet Printer.
I said I’ve been trying for 20 years. Obviously it’s a Brother.
Xerox has been great for me. They dont just make giant copiers you need a forklift to deliver and a giant service contract. They still make small home office desk printers.
After wiring up to my network and giving it a static, it’s just worked, for all devices for everyone. No need to download or install anything either.
For real, how is it that Brother makes the only printer that everything from my phone to my servers can use without problems. Bonus points for not gouging on toner.
Sounds like a market niche, you could start it up, call it something like “macrosoft”. … then start making scripts that do the work for the user, don’t release the scripts because people pay for them. Let this go on for many years and you find yourself shoving “AI” down your users throats and screenshotting their desktop without explicit permission…
Hopefully that path is mostly precluded if an open source project like Yunohost is used as a basis.
I’m tired of the argument that the solution to fight tracking/ads/subscription/gafam is self hosting.
It’s a solution for some nice people that have knowledge, time and money for.
But it’s not a solution for everyone.
We need more small nice open source association and company that provide services for people that don’t know the difference between a web search engine and a navigator or just a server and a client. I think that initiatives like “les chatons” in France are amazing for that!!! ( https://www.chatons.org/en )And just to be clear, I think that self-hosted services are a part of the solution. :)
I’m hoping my makerspace will be able to do something like that in the future. We’d need funding for a much bigger internet connection, at least three full time systems people paid market wages and benefits (three because they deserve to go on vacation while we maintain a reasonable level of reliability), and also space for a couple of server racks. Equipment itself is pretty cheap–tons of used servers on eBay are out there–but monthly costs are not.
It’s a lot, but I think we could pull it off a few years from now if we can find the right funding sources. Hopefully can be self-funding in the long run with reasonable monthly fees.
Agreed. Most people online think having a personal website on their own domain is too much of a hassle, they won’t have the knowledge or time to setup a homelab server.
We need more of the nice people you mention — with the tech knowhow and surplus of time — to maintain community services as alternatives to corporate platforms. I see a few co-op services around where member-owners pay a fee to have access to cloud storage and social platforms; that is one way to ensure the basic upkeep of such a community. I’m not sure how Chatons is financed but they certainly have a wide range of libre and private offerings!
Buying a used desktop is very nice for these things. You can set up a steam gaming thing.
Unfortunately he is not talking about security?
All of these types are articles always leave out the calculations of what your time is worth to you and the maintenance costs of spare hard drives and other equipment. The TCO is not just the initial investment in hardware/software alone. Unless you plan to host something unreliably and value your time at nothing. In which case I hope you don’t get friends or family hooked on your stuff or everyone will have a bad time and be back to Google Drive/Docs and Netflix within 5 years.
The reason they leave it out I feel is because once you factor all of that stuff in the $10/month your paying for Google Drive storage or the ~$25 your paying Netflix starts to make a lot more sense when pared with a decent local backup from a Synology NAS for the “I can’t lose this” stuff like baby pictures of your kids. Which blows their entire premise out of the water.
What about email?
Former professional email host here. Email is like 90% spam.
If want to spend your free time battling the ever evolving landscape of spam, enjoy.
Otherwise, work with a pro mail provider you trust.
I get that. And I self host the things I care about. But for the average layman? I don’t see self hosting as a real option. Unless you are decently tech savvy, and have an aptitude for troubleshooting, most people aren’t gonna put in the time or effort of initial setup. Even if maintenance is minimal once it’s running. That first leap into self-hosted is daunting.
I think of it this way… would I expect my dad to be able to do it? Absolutely not. And my dad is decently tech savvy for 70.
You are correct! That first leap into self hosting was a doozy! No regrets now tho ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I think you dropped this: \
The first step is normalising the idea of privacy so people can even see the point of paying for something they can easily get for free.
The next step would be to make products people can easily use without being tech savvy. A synology NAS has been great for me and I praise the setup to anyone who will listen, but even with something like Synology people will need some basic knowledge.
YunoHost is trying to make it easier than a synology NAS to install services and get them setup properly but I agree that to configure your network properly is difficult and everyone’s setup is different so specific knowledge is required.
Yeah yunohost is pretty great for less than 10 users. Perhaps more depending on the service. Its very easy to get setup in a weekend with a plethora of services. And its pretty stable.
Trying to run your own nextcloud be like
Nextcloud was somewhat difficult for me the first time I installed it, though I did have a usable system in the end. Then I discovered Nextcloud AIO and haven’t had an issue since.
Don’t forget that self hosting without proper knowledge is more dangerous than just giving away data to the big techs!
I don’t get this counter-argument. Is TFA actually suggesting that the average grandma quit using Yahoo mail or Facebook and set up her own email server and mastodon instance? The only people even considering self-hosting are people with technology interest and reasonable passion. It’s an article written for a niche techie website, and we’re discussing it on a forum for self-hosting nerds.
The counter-argument is like saying the average layman should stick to televised football, because they don’t have the physical savvy or aptitude for the game, and most people aren’t gonna put in the time or effort to build their strength & endurance to compete. It may be an accurate statement, but the people you’re addressing (grandma) weren’t TFA’s target audience and weren’t even going to try in the first place, and you discourage people who might really enjoy giving the hobby a try.
That first leap into self-hosted is daunting.
the first leap you take into anything is daunting.
This is just called complacency. You can literally just pick up whatever the fuck you want, and start learning it.
If you’re not paying for a service, you’re likely being monetized by watching ads or providing personal data to companies that don’t necessarily have your best interests at heart.
This is a bit out of date. Nowadays, you pay for the service and are monetized by watching ads and providing personal data to companies that definitely don’t have your best interests at heart.
People said it back then too. The ad and tracking industry will always invade more and more of our privacy. When will there be enough tracking to make them stop and be happy? Never. Never is the only answer.
Username checks out .
And here’s the reason why layman should not: they’re much more likely to make that one wrong move and suffer irrecoverable data loss than some faceless corporation selling their data.
At the end of the day, those of us who are technical enough will take the risk and learn, but for vast majority of the people, it is and will continue to remain as a non starter for the foreseeable future.
And here’s the reason why layman should not: they’re much more likely to make that one wrong move and suffer irrecoverable data loss than some faceless corporation selling their data.
and yet americans still drive cars.
I don’t disagree, but you just have to be aware that you can fuck shit up. And if you do, that’s not my problem, or anybody elses at the end of the day.
Not to mention, few people have the time, skill, money, and energy to do it. They’re happy to outsource in exchange for money and/or data.
There are actually easy solutions out there. For example CasaOS, it’s a oneliner and you get a docker orchestration with an app-store and built-in file and smb management. I bet even non technicals could use this.
The “layman” should fall back to old ways. Think local photo management with maybe some backup software
So just because they don’t know technology like you do, they should be left behind the times instead of taking advantage of advancements? A bit elitist and gate keeping there, don’t you think?
Everyone have their own choices to make, and for most, they’ve already decided they’d rather benefit from advancements than care about what you care about.
I think they should do what they know. Asking them to try to learn new things when they don’t enjoy it is not fun
With that being said, if they have the drive to spend time on it let them
I stopped reading after this line.
Raspberry Pi won’t do unfortunately, unless you run up to 4 lightweight containers.
Does the author know how much compute power a Raspberry Pi 5 has? If the software that just hosts personal data can’t run in Raspberry Pi 5, that should be a terrible software. For most people and their families, a RPi5 is enough to host anything that they would ever need.
Perhaps this was written much earlier than v5.
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May 27th 2024? O.o
It says posted 4 days ago, updated yesterday.
For most stuff the pi4 is also enough. Jellyfin (no transcoding) works fine on mine. It takes a bit to generate the chapter images and the timeline peek images when ingesting a new movie, but I’ve never had any issues with playback.
How good is it? I have a raspi5 and wonder where it’s limit is
Well I run an ntp stratum 1 server handling 2800 requests a second on average (3.6mbit/s total average traffic), and a flight radar24 reporting station, plus some other rarely used services.
The fan only comes on during boot, I’ve never heard it used in normal operation. Load averages 0.3-0.5. Most of that is Fr24. Chrony takes <5% of a single core usually.
It’s pretty capable.
Wait what? Do I understand that correctly? You have a raspberry pi with a direct network connection to an atomic clock? That’s so awesome!
No. A GPS (with PPS) hat. That counts as a stratum 0 time source, making the NTP server stratum 1.
Ah, gotcha.
Is there like a list where you can enter your server so that other people use it as an ntp server? Or how did you advertise it to have 2800 requests flooding in?
I’m in the ntppool.org pool for the UK. It randomly assigns servers which could be any stratum really (but there is quality control on the time provided). I also have stratum 2 servers in .fi, and .fr (which are dedicated servers I also use for other things, rather than a raspberry pi).
I’ve ran multiple containers on a Pi 3 before “upgrading” to a Pi 4. Yes not even a Pi 5. Sure it’s not rapid and drags it’s heels at times but for the most part it’s great for hosting stuff for my household.
Home assistant, Plex, Syncthing, Wireguard, Ad Guard, nginx, nginx proxy manager, duckdns, mongodb and unifi network appliance. I was also running Jellyfin along side Plex but it keeps causing the Pi to lock up.
was this article even written when the pi5 was out? The pi4 was out, and pretty good for quite a while, but really expensive in the last four years. The pi 5 is up there, but the price almost makes sense, so.
you can do quite a bit on these machines, but they are inherently limited, running a proper nas is going to be rather goofy, and probably just justifies getting proper hardware at the end of the day.
Someday I hope we have a server technology that’s platform-agnostic and you can just add things like “Minecraft Server” or “Email Server” to a list and it’ll install, configure, and host everything in the list with a sensible default config. I imagine you could make the technology fairly easily, although keeping up with new services, versions, security updates, etc. would be quite the hassle. But that’s what collaboration is for!
As someone who has had a career in hosting: good luck.
Don’t forget backups, logging, monitoring, alerting on top of security updates, hardware failure, power outages, OS updates, app updates, and tech being deprecated and obsolete at a rapid pace.
I’m in favor of a decentralized net with more self-hosting, but that requires more education and skill. You can’t automate away all the unpleasant and technical bits.
But if we hide the complexity, surely we won’t ever have to deal with it! /s
You can’t automate away all the unpleasant and technical bits.
But it’s our job to try
Unraid does this via docker. It’s amazing. You can do this live and on the fly.
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Neat!
…is as mod by Vaskii
Honestly at this point that is docker and docker compose.
As to what to run it on that very much depends on preference. I use a proxmox server but it could just as easily be pure Debian. A basic webui like cockpit can make system management operations a bit more simplified.
Docker is in theory nice, if it works. Docker doesn’t run on my computer(i have no fucking clue why). Every time I try to do anything I get the Error “Unknown Server: OS” also there is literally nothing you can find online about how to Fux this problem.
What computer and OS do you have that can’t run docker? You can run a full stack of services on a random windows laptop as easily as a dedicated server.
Edit
Autocorrect messing with OS.
I use EndeavourOS, but had the same problem on Arch.
Hardware wise I have an 75800x, a RX 6700XT and 32GB 3200mhz Ram.
The weird thing is, that some time ago I was actually able to use docker, but now I’m not.
That doesn’t make any sense to me. It can be installed directly from pacman. It may be something silly like adding docker to your user group. Have you done something like below for docker?
- Update the package index:
sudo pacman -Syu- Install required dependencies:
sudo pacman -S docker- Enable and start the Docker service:
sudo systemctl enable docker.service sudo systemctl start docker.service- Add your user to the docker group to run Docker commands without sudo:
sudo usermod -aG docker $USER-
Log out and log back in for the group changes to take effect.
Verify that Docker CE is installed correctly by running:
docker --versionIf you get the above working docker compose is just
sudo pacman -S docker-composeI didnt start docker and didn’t add it to my user group. Maybe this will fix it.
sudo pacman -S docker-compose
I did all the steps you mentioned and now it works(at least if use sudo to run the commands).
I thought it would. If it still requires sudo to run it is probably just docker wanting your user account added to the docker group. If the “docker” group doesn’t exist you can safely create it.
You will likely need to log out and log back in for the system to recognize the new group permissions.
Sounds kinda like NixOS, although that’s not platform-agnostic.
Funnily enough I do use NixOS for my server! It’s not quite what I was describing but it does allow me to host easily.
Cloudron does that,not for free, though. But cheap
I self host mail/smtp(opensmtpd)+imap(dovecot), znc (irc bouncer), ssh, vpn (ipsec/ikev2), www/http (httpd), git (git-daemon), and gotweb, on an extremely cheap ($2 a month, 512M ram 10G storage) vps all very easily on openbsd. With all these servers I’m using an immense 178M/512M of my available memory.
what VPS provider are you using?
buyvm/frantech
I have similar specs and cost with ionos
Sigh, kinda… but don’t forget to factor in your backup costs too
On a financial aspect, self hosting is more expensive most of the time, if you convert time to money, even if you calculate using less than 100$ per hour (In my country we charge about 200$ per work hour)
Depends on how you calculate costs. Like, I have Kodi running on a RPi for home entertainment/theater. There’s no way to outsource that, but the RPi is idle most of the time. Adding services to it is effectively or marginally free, except for my time, and there’s still a significant time cost to get paid, off-site cloud services set up.
But charging for your own time is kind of disingenuous. You don’t include your time in the cost of eating (a Big Mac worth $60??), watching a video, or going on vacation. The only people self-hosting have a personal, hobby/entertainment interest in it, and I think it’s more accurate to compare the costs of self hosting with the costs of other forms of entertainment. Do you get more fun-value out of the costs of self hosting or out of a theater ticket?
Well, you can calculate how much money you would make in the time you do hobby, entertainment and eating. And I bet, “everyone” includes some people, that see setting up home/private IT not as hobby, for those people the comparison is like spending time x or paying amount x (data or/and money) (you could compare it to housekeeping) In such cases it makes sense to give the spent time a value in data or money, so that it is comparable
Maybe you spend time on selfhosting and now you have less time for other things that need to be done and now you have to outsource it (for money) giving time as well calculateable value
Should we do that though? I’m choosing between playing PS5 and configuring my home server. I’m not being paid for either of that. But skills I obtain while tinkering with the server actually help me with some tasks at work.
Sure, you can compare to what else you would do in that time slot, but money would be the more general thing (you can compare better, since everything is in the base of money)
Back to your example: time spent on each task is equal -> same value invested but output may have different value (game skills/progress vs IT skills/progress)
So since investing value is the same for both task, you can ignore that part and concentrate on the output.
Oh, I wouldn’t if I could avoid it. The “fun” of tinkering with IT stuff in my very limited spare time vaporized many years ago. If I could pay for services that did exactly what I wanted, respected my privacy, and valued my business while charging a fair price, I would stop self-hosting tomorrow. But that’s not usually how it works.
Self hosting isn’t super high maintenance once you get everything set up but it still takes up probably 10-12 hours per month on average and I would not mind having that time back.
With Proton you could get emails, calendar, contacts, drive for a fair price and good privacy, for example.
I like the idea, but I don’t like that everything is tied to a single account. If it’s compromised so are your emails, calendar, contacts, files, and passwords. But the service is good enough to replace Google, and choosing between the two, I’d choose Proton.
I agree that it would be very bad if your Proton account got compromised with so much data tied to it. However, I’m personally comfortable with a strong password and 2FA for my Proton account.
If you self-host all the same services you have the same exposure level if root on your hosting machine is compromised. I suppose it depends on how confident you feel in how agile you can patch if a vulnerability becomes known in postfix for example. I wouldn’t consider self hosting something that reduces your cybersecurity risk typically
I definitely trust Proton much more than I trust myself.
That’s true. But as we were speaking about an external service (Proton), I was thinking about diversification. I use Proton for emails, but I don’t use Proton Pass opting for another external password manager.
Mail servers are the one thing I refuse to self host. Years of managing enterprise email taught me that I don’t need that kind of negativity in my life
I agree. I was thinking about using different services for different tasks instead of putting everything into the same basket. I’m not self-hosting an email server either.
I nowadays manage my private stuff with the ansible scripts I develop for work - so mostly my own stuff is a development environment for work, and therefore doesn’t need to be done on private time.
