Soooo much appreciation for this 🩷 I think I’ll forever mentally twitch when people use dude, man, mate, bro, etc. towards me. I totally know it’s done in a gender neutral way, but I still feel a small pang in my heart.
Using a validating, non vaguely-male term is great, though!
Most of the terms are like: “these are MALE terms and also girls can be ‘one of the bros’ in certain circumstances”… but that’s just not what transition is about.
We don’t want to be “just one of the bros”; you gotta understand that:
a) that’s NOT what a lot of us after,
b) the world doesn’t revolve around men and being men and being masculine (and perpetuating that male chauvinism perspective is shitty),
and c) it’s okay to call girls, girls, and to be a woman. That isn’t a negative or lesser or othering l thing, despite how much of society raises us to believe.
I’m also not saying that we don’t want to be included wherever we feel comfortable fitting in, we absolutely do. And I think a lot of allies understand that. But just as many allies understand that trans women feel left out from being included in feminine spaces, as well. And sometimes, while we may fit in better with the bros, way more than the girls, that itself can feel awful and really get the dysphoria going. Sometimes though, some of us realize that the dudes that are bros we realize are hot and dumb and we want to be closer to them for… different reasons.
Personally, I’m poly and pan and just want everybody to get along and not have weird stereotypically forced gender segregated hobbies, interests, and cliques anymore because that’s weird and uncomfy. I don’t even know what I’m talking about anymore I haven’t eaten today yet. Homie is fine, I guess, but borderline, personally. I don’t know a better replacement.
I am not very close to many trans people so most of my approach just comes from wanting to be able to be ‘buddies’ strictly plutonic friends with people of any gender.
I found for CIS people that homie was welcoming and friendly and more likely to get thrown around by everyone as its a little silly
I can appreciate the importance of recognizing someone’s gender especially if they are experiencing dysmorphia and I appreciate you pointing out that importance
Lmao it’s platonic. Plutonic sounds like you’re radioactive or something.
Also, dysmorphia is when something is “morphed” differently and it is dis-tressing, a la shape or physical attributes. Like seeing yourself as overweight when you’re not, or obsessing over your nose being too big or too small. In usually unhealthy, obsessive, and inaccurate ways. Think: anorexia.
Dysphoria is the opposite of euphoria. It’s very different. When somebody has gender dysphoria, it’s a fundamental opposite-of-euphoria about ones gender. Trans women do not want to be men (because they’re women), trans men do not want to be women (because they’re men), and enbies don’t want to be whatever it is they don’t want to be (because they are actually chaos and you should definitely go on that journey with them, I guarantee it’ll be interesting .).
All LGBT and queerness and liberalism is doing is trying to make the world suck less for people who are actually different. It’s not some weird, alternative lifestyle crazy people. It’s just that some people didn’t fit into the stupid little boxes enough (trust me, nobody fully fits into them) that they said “fuck you and your little boxes, this is stupid and I’ve had enough. Why do we even have these stupid little boxes anyway?” And proceeded to examine why, and what they found was a deeper and deeper and deeper rabbit hole of bullshit that infected everybody’s brains and was hurting EVERYBODY needlessly and only served the billionaires and the string pullers of society at the top and was in various forms around the world, perpetuated by almost all religions and, while having various times in history where it was seen and less an issue, keeps having resurgences because it is so fundamental dismantling of so many tools of control that the billionaires fear.
It’s like, seeing through all of it (the bullshit) leads to asking too many questions about our existence and fundamental social structures, which leads to loss of power for the billionaires over generations.
I’m a person who calls everyone “dude”, “bro”, “man” etc. regardless of gender. When I talk to a woman using those words, my mentality isn’t that they are necessarilly “one of the bros” specifically meaning “similar to one of my male friends”, but more that I’ve never called anyone “sis” or “girl” in my life, and I’m not about to start. I also don’t like using gendered pronouns in any conversation, regardless of who I’m talking to. For example, instead of “him” or “her”, I will usually say " 'em" (short for them).
To me, I am not talking to a man or a woman; I am talking to a human.
With my transfem friends, though, I usually just call them by their name, since that seems to be a good compromise.
Who knows. Maybe I’ll just start calling everyone “comrade”
I appreciate your sense of trying to do right, but you should really not degender people, as that’s a thing that transphobes do when trying to not be seen as a transphobe. Degendering is very similar to misgendering, btw, in that it doesn’t respect the person’s pronouns, and thus is attempting to discredit their gender.
If you’re truly gender-abolitionist and (I will optimistically assume) race-abolitionist, and don’t want to have gender be part of you, congruently, maybe don’t use dude or bro at all anymore? Would you kiss a dude or a bro? Or did that question make you mentally imagine a masculine person?
I dunno. If I met a person in real life that truly never used he or she pronouns, and included me in that, I would probably be okay with it. But if they weren’t consistent and they just used it around me or with other trans people, I would have a huge problem with it. Because the crux of the problem would be whether or not they are truly trying to change everything, or if they just cannot see me as a woman and are trying not to be hurtful without trying to understand.
I notice a lot of corporate-like personalities try to do this by hedging their language. It always feels spineless and shitty, they are NOT trying to change everything, they’re just trying to manipulate everybody so that they can HAVE everything.
If you’re truly gender-abolitionist and (I will optimistically assume) race-abolitionist, and don’t want to have gender be part of you, congruently, maybe don’t use dude or bro at all anymore?
Gender, race, nationality, and country abolishionist.
I would love an alternative, but the colloquial American English language does not have casual, non-gendered words to refer to people in general other than “comrade”, but I don’t want to call everyone a comrade because then everyone will think I’m a communist (I am, but I don’t want that to be public).
That’s strange. Not saying right or wrong, but in my head, dude is like a cowboy, overly masculine, like literally more masculine than calling somebody a mister. But then it got appropriated by guys (meaning men/boys) over the years and eventually got used for referring to somebody else that was a guy, and never girls. Like a good ole boys club that all men were a part of. And over time started getting used on tomboys and masc women, and I guess that and ‘bro’ started getting used on girls, too. Which is, optimistically, great. Except homophobia still exists and a lot of guys who would hear “bro that likes to help out their bro” is still commonly used to mean something homosexual.
Bud or Buddy, or pal are the same vein, they’re still absolutely masculine, could be used in place of friend but are still masculine or desexualizing. A LOT of language is crazy homophobic.
I think a large part of the issue here may be actually the homophobia, and that calling trans girls bros or dudes, and why that’s invalidating, may be because of homophobia and how by coding them as a traditionally desexualized name and that being more comfortable to most guys might be because they’re uncomfortable with seeing trans women as women, and thus a sexual option. It validates the trans woman as a chill friend person, but says no I refuse to see you in any way sexual, be it straight OR gay (but especially straight/het) because transphobia and homophobia.
I then presume the question(s):
Is there correlation with those trans girls okay with being called dude and whether or not they are interested, sexually, in men?
What about, then, if there’s a correlation between being about to intuit that deep connection? There are also many connections in that logic on the way that simply may not exist.
Or maybe a free mind, free from self imposed homophobia or transphobia?
Or, one that DOES have those self impositions?
An alien, new to our language, culture, and existential limitations would not know or care about such nuances of being called “dude” unless they had previously been subject to categorization and the bigotry of human culture. So, what then, is the difference between an entirely ignorant alien - a seemingly blank slate, and those of us that feel something’s off when being called dude, even when the speaker professes beneficence?
To answer that, would require a sample of considered answers from various trans women to why they’re offended by it, and then drilling down to see what lies beneath.
Unfortunately, this platform is not the place for said incredibly private and sensitive affairs. So this conversation effectively must come to an intellectual dead end, replaced by an alternative, shallower treatment of minimizing collateral invalidation and emotional minimization: if somebody says you’re doing something that truly bothers them, you should stop. Don’t try to justify why it shouldn’t bother them, that’s intrusive, controlling, and hurtful, and is an attempt to invalidate their feelings.
Only if both people want to continue to drill down, respectfully, examining the values of their own perspectives and value in pursuing continued use or dislike of use of the term, should that happen.
But like… definitely don’t trample somebody’s dignity. That’s bullshit behavior and is worth punching somebody for.
…Giving me flashbacks to that Mercedes Lackey book that tried to make “singular y’all” a thing, work characters in Appalachia. (I’m told it’s a thing further west, but for Appalachian characters it was nails on a chalkboard).
💜
I don’t know about any of that other stuff, but y’all is absolutely you+all, and to me is explicitly referring to other people, meaning more than one. You could do y’all for somebody who is a DiD system maybe.
This is kind of the logic that hurts me. People like me will express that those terms make them uncomfortable, but someone will argue that they’ll use gendered words with the intent to be gender neutral. But like…it’s not very empathetic to disregard someone’s feelings because using ‘girl’ is uncomfortable. It’s kind of putting your feelings above there’s. If you have the opportunity to be kind and affirming, to make someone feel safe and comfortable in the world, why not embrace that? A simple change in your language could make someone’s entire day.
Nobody (including you) should put other peoples’ feeling above your own, as that is an extremely unhealthy thing to do. Being considerate of someone’s feelings and sacrificing your own feelings for someone else are two very different things.
The people I talk to don’t mind the way I talk, and that is how I judge my language. I also make sure that I give them the environment necessary to express their discomfort with my language if they have any.
Do you have any non-gendered alternatives to “dude” and “bro?”
Nobody (including you) should put other peoples’ feeling above your own
I kinda see where you’re coming from, but I wholeheartedly disagree.
You should never put your needs below anyone else’s, but I’d argue that it’s very healthy to mildly inconvenience yourself in order to avoid majorly inconveniencing or hurting others. In fact I’d say that’s kind of the entire cornersone of human civilization.
Yes, and every time someone is bothered by my language, I change my language specifically for them, like how I call my transfem friends by their name instead of saying “dude”, etc.
My long-time friend and hair stylist very occasionally uses that with me and her other girl friends. She uses it super occasionally and in such a loving way that it doesn’t bother me as much. It’s very context dependent with her since she’s so caring and affirming to me and usually uses girl, sis, beautiful, babe, etc. If someone I didn’t know used that with me, I’d probably understand it’s being used in a gender-neutral way, but it originates from ‘homeboy’, so it still carries that slight weight.
Soooo much appreciation for this 🩷 I think I’ll forever mentally twitch when people use dude, man, mate, bro, etc. towards me. I totally know it’s done in a gender neutral way, but I still feel a small pang in my heart.
How’s Homie sit with you? (I think Homie is a great gender neutral term!)
Using a validating, non vaguely-male term is great, though!
Most of the terms are like: “these are MALE terms and also girls can be ‘one of the bros’ in certain circumstances”… but that’s just not what transition is about.
We don’t want to be “just one of the bros”; you gotta understand that:
a) that’s NOT what a lot of us after,
b) the world doesn’t revolve around men and being men and being masculine (and perpetuating that male chauvinism perspective is shitty),
and c) it’s okay to call girls, girls, and to be a woman. That isn’t a negative or lesser or othering l thing, despite how much of society raises us to believe.
I’m also not saying that we don’t want to be included wherever we feel comfortable fitting in, we absolutely do. And I think a lot of allies understand that. But just as many allies understand that trans women feel left out from being included in feminine spaces, as well. And sometimes, while we may fit in better with the bros, way more than the girls, that itself can feel awful and really get the dysphoria going. Sometimes though, some of us realize that the dudes that are bros we realize are hot and dumb and we want to be closer to them for… different reasons.
Personally, I’m poly and pan and just want everybody to get along and not have weird stereotypically forced gender segregated hobbies, interests, and cliques anymore because that’s weird and uncomfy. I don’t even know what I’m talking about anymore I haven’t eaten today yet. Homie is fine, I guess, but borderline, personally. I don’t know a better replacement.
Haha that was a lot.
Thank you for that perspective.
I am not very close to many trans people so most of my approach just comes from wanting to be able to be ‘buddies’ strictly plutonic friends with people of any gender.
I found for CIS people that homie was welcoming and friendly and more likely to get thrown around by everyone as its a little silly
I can appreciate the importance of recognizing someone’s gender especially if they are experiencing dysmorphia and I appreciate you pointing out that importance
Lmao it’s platonic. Plutonic sounds like you’re radioactive or something.
Also, dysmorphia is when something is “morphed” differently and it is dis-tressing, a la shape or physical attributes. Like seeing yourself as overweight when you’re not, or obsessing over your nose being too big or too small. In usually unhealthy, obsessive, and inaccurate ways. Think: anorexia.
Dysphoria is the opposite of euphoria. It’s very different. When somebody has gender dysphoria, it’s a fundamental opposite-of-euphoria about ones gender. Trans women do not want to be men (because they’re women), trans men do not want to be women (because they’re men), and enbies don’t want to be whatever it is they don’t want to be (because they are actually chaos and you should definitely go on that journey with them, I guarantee it’ll be interesting .).
All LGBT and queerness and liberalism is doing is trying to make the world suck less for people who are actually different. It’s not some weird, alternative lifestyle crazy people. It’s just that some people didn’t fit into the stupid little boxes enough (trust me, nobody fully fits into them) that they said “fuck you and your little boxes, this is stupid and I’ve had enough. Why do we even have these stupid little boxes anyway?” And proceeded to examine why, and what they found was a deeper and deeper and deeper rabbit hole of bullshit that infected everybody’s brains and was hurting EVERYBODY needlessly and only served the billionaires and the string pullers of society at the top and was in various forms around the world, perpetuated by almost all religions and, while having various times in history where it was seen and less an issue, keeps having resurgences because it is so fundamental dismantling of so many tools of control that the billionaires fear.
It’s like, seeing through all of it (the bullshit) leads to asking too many questions about our existence and fundamental social structures, which leads to loss of power for the billionaires over generations.
Why DO they fear trans women so much?
I’m a person who calls everyone “dude”, “bro”, “man” etc. regardless of gender. When I talk to a woman using those words, my mentality isn’t that they are necessarilly “one of the bros” specifically meaning “similar to one of my male friends”, but more that I’ve never called anyone “sis” or “girl” in my life, and I’m not about to start. I also don’t like using gendered pronouns in any conversation, regardless of who I’m talking to. For example, instead of “him” or “her”, I will usually say " 'em" (short for them).
To me, I am not talking to a man or a woman; I am talking to a human.
With my transfem friends, though, I usually just call them by their name, since that seems to be a good compromise.
Who knows. Maybe I’ll just start calling everyone “comrade”
I appreciate your sense of trying to do right, but you should really not degender people, as that’s a thing that transphobes do when trying to not be seen as a transphobe. Degendering is very similar to misgendering, btw, in that it doesn’t respect the person’s pronouns, and thus is attempting to discredit their gender.
If you’re truly gender-abolitionist and (I will optimistically assume) race-abolitionist, and don’t want to have gender be part of you, congruently, maybe don’t use dude or bro at all anymore? Would you kiss a dude or a bro? Or did that question make you mentally imagine a masculine person?
I dunno. If I met a person in real life that truly never used he or she pronouns, and included me in that, I would probably be okay with it. But if they weren’t consistent and they just used it around me or with other trans people, I would have a huge problem with it. Because the crux of the problem would be whether or not they are truly trying to change everything, or if they just cannot see me as a woman and are trying not to be hurtful without trying to understand.
I notice a lot of corporate-like personalities try to do this by hedging their language. It always feels spineless and shitty, they are NOT trying to change everything, they’re just trying to manipulate everybody so that they can HAVE everything.
Gender, race, nationality, and country abolishionist.
I would love an alternative, but the colloquial American English language does not have casual, non-gendered words to refer to people in general other than “comrade”, but I don’t want to call everyone a comrade because then everyone will think I’m a communist (I am, but I don’t want that to be public).
folks, friend(s), y’all, sweetie, sugarcube, partner, sport, buddy, pal, chum, sunshine, fam
English has quite a few
I find buddy and pal way more gendered (to me) than dude, tbh
I’m fine with being called dude, it makes me feel like a chill homegirl. But you call me “bud” and I’ll want to punch you.
Thanks Super, saw surprises on the list & helps to have someone jump in for contrast, digest it all in a well-rounded way
Very thoughtful discussion y’all
That’s strange. Not saying right or wrong, but in my head, dude is like a cowboy, overly masculine, like literally more masculine than calling somebody a mister. But then it got appropriated by guys (meaning men/boys) over the years and eventually got used for referring to somebody else that was a guy, and never girls. Like a good ole boys club that all men were a part of. And over time started getting used on tomboys and masc women, and I guess that and ‘bro’ started getting used on girls, too. Which is, optimistically, great. Except homophobia still exists and a lot of guys who would hear “bro that likes to help out their bro” is still commonly used to mean something homosexual.
Bud or Buddy, or pal are the same vein, they’re still absolutely masculine, could be used in place of friend but are still masculine or desexualizing. A LOT of language is crazy homophobic.
I think a large part of the issue here may be actually the homophobia, and that calling trans girls bros or dudes, and why that’s invalidating, may be because of homophobia and how by coding them as a traditionally desexualized name and that being more comfortable to most guys might be because they’re uncomfortable with seeing trans women as women, and thus a sexual option. It validates the trans woman as a chill friend person, but says no I refuse to see you in any way sexual, be it straight OR gay (but especially straight/het) because transphobia and homophobia.
I then presume the question(s):
Is there correlation with those trans girls okay with being called dude and whether or not they are interested, sexually, in men?
What about, then, if there’s a correlation between being about to intuit that deep connection? There are also many connections in that logic on the way that simply may not exist.
Or maybe a free mind, free from self imposed homophobia or transphobia?
Or, one that DOES have those self impositions?
An alien, new to our language, culture, and existential limitations would not know or care about such nuances of being called “dude” unless they had previously been subject to categorization and the bigotry of human culture. So, what then, is the difference between an entirely ignorant alien - a seemingly blank slate, and those of us that feel something’s off when being called dude, even when the speaker professes beneficence?
To answer that, would require a sample of considered answers from various trans women to why they’re offended by it, and then drilling down to see what lies beneath.
Unfortunately, this platform is not the place for said incredibly private and sensitive affairs. So this conversation effectively must come to an intellectual dead end, replaced by an alternative, shallower treatment of minimizing collateral invalidation and emotional minimization: if somebody says you’re doing something that truly bothers them, you should stop. Don’t try to justify why it shouldn’t bother them, that’s intrusive, controlling, and hurtful, and is an attempt to invalidate their feelings.
Only if both people want to continue to drill down, respectfully, examining the values of their own perspectives and value in pursuing continued use or dislike of use of the term, should that happen.
But like… definitely don’t trample somebody’s dignity. That’s bullshit behavior and is worth punching somebody for.
…Giving me flashbacks to that Mercedes Lackey book that tried to make “singular y’all” a thing, work characters in Appalachia. (I’m told it’s a thing further west, but for Appalachian characters it was nails on a chalkboard). 💜
I don’t know about any of that other stuff, but y’all is absolutely you+all, and to me is explicitly referring to other people, meaning more than one. You could do y’all for somebody who is a DiD system maybe.
Lol “sugarcube”. But yeah, maybe I should take a page from Canadians.
haha, figured it was a thing but all I see is urban dictionary
Perhaps you should reflect on why you think bro and dude is humanizing but sis and girl is not
Easy. I’m a straight male who grew up around surfers in California.
This is kind of the logic that hurts me. People like me will express that those terms make them uncomfortable, but someone will argue that they’ll use gendered words with the intent to be gender neutral. But like…it’s not very empathetic to disregard someone’s feelings because using ‘girl’ is uncomfortable. It’s kind of putting your feelings above there’s. If you have the opportunity to be kind and affirming, to make someone feel safe and comfortable in the world, why not embrace that? A simple change in your language could make someone’s entire day.
Nobody (including you) should put other peoples’ feeling above your own, as that is an extremely unhealthy thing to do. Being considerate of someone’s feelings and sacrificing your own feelings for someone else are two very different things.
The people I talk to don’t mind the way I talk, and that is how I judge my language. I also make sure that I give them the environment necessary to express their discomfort with my language if they have any.
Do you have any non-gendered alternatives to “dude” and “bro?”
I kinda see where you’re coming from, but I wholeheartedly disagree.
You should never put your needs below anyone else’s, but I’d argue that it’s very healthy to mildly inconvenience yourself in order to avoid majorly inconveniencing or hurting others. In fact I’d say that’s kind of the entire cornersone of human civilization.
Yes, and every time someone is bothered by my language, I change my language specifically for them, like how I call my transfem friends by their name instead of saying “dude”, etc.
My long-time friend and hair stylist very occasionally uses that with me and her other girl friends. She uses it super occasionally and in such a loving way that it doesn’t bother me as much. It’s very context dependent with her since she’s so caring and affirming to me and usually uses girl, sis, beautiful, babe, etc. If someone I didn’t know used that with me, I’d probably understand it’s being used in a gender-neutral way, but it originates from ‘homeboy’, so it still carries that slight weight.
I use it mainly with people I am familiar with.
I like to have terms of endearment for others and thats just one thats been good in a lot of contexts for me.
You and SCmSTR have pointed out the complexity in choosing that as a go to.
Thank you!